MichaelさんとBosch Rexrothの背景
Hello, welcome to FA Radio. So here is a podcastwith me and Takahashi-san, Chris and Takahashi-santo host a podcast to explain more topics onfactory automations and we have also some specialcorner to invite manufacturers from othercountries.
So this time, I am very happy that I invite ctrlX.Thanks, Michael. He is a very great manager. Ithink I met him three years before, four yearsbefore. So, Michael, could you introduce yourself?
And you are the nice guy sending nice postcardsalways. Famous for your postcards.
They are in my office, at my office wall, by theway. So, I am Michael. I am from Bosch Rexort. 19years with the company. Always an automation guy.Looking forward for our conversation today.
Okay. So, in Bosch, what kind of position that youare now?
I am responsible for the partner network oftechnology partners that contribute to ourplatform, ctrlX Automation. We are going to talkabout that. And I am currently in the transitionfor a new job, being more responsible for oursales partners.
So, yeah, I see. But it's always dealing aroundthe ecosystem around ctrlX Automation, ourplatform.
Ah, okay. I see. I think the first time when I metMichael is around four or five, four years beforeago. I met him in LingYin. Because the first time,I think I just posted something on LingYin that Iwould like to try ctrlX.
It's something some people would give me thechance. And then Michael, he contacted me and hehelped me to create a member. So, I can downloadthe latest version of ctrlX. Even now, the accountis still working. And then the first version thatI worked with ctrlX is 1.3, 1.4. I think now it's3.something.
So, I thank him for giving me this chance to try ctrlX. That's also why now we can host thispodcast.
OTを変える「オートメーションのスマートフォン」
Okay. So, the first question is, I think not justJapan, it's just Japanese people. Because I alsocome from Hong Kong. When the people hear aboutBosch, the first thing they think is tubes andhydraulic and servo. And even not so many peopleimagine that ctrlX, Bosch will make a wholeecosystem. It's called ctrlX platform.
So, could you explain what is the ctrlX platformand what is this magic?
Yeah. So, let me start like this. So, Bosch has,let's say, different areas that you alreadymentioned. And we are part of the industrial area.And we are an automation platform. And so, we arepart and that's why we are called Bosch Rexroth.That's the second name. It's a company that hasbeen acquired 25 years ago from Bosch, before itwas Mannesmann.
And within Rexroth, we have been actually theinventor of the brushless servo motor in 1979,before I was even born. That's quite funny. Andhave a strong heritage in electric drives andmotors. And always needed controls also to steerthese electric drives and motors.
So, we started with a motion control. So, aspecial control for this area and gained ourexperience. And we learned a lot about that. Andin 2017, we thought, okay, it's time to bring outanother broad automation platform to the marketthat goes beyond, let's say, motion control, whichis our heritage.
Because we saw that many automation platforms bythat time could not really cope with ITrequirements or were not really on par, you know.I always say, when you come from IT and you workin OT, in operational technology, it's like timetraveling 20 years back.
So, you have time travel 20 years back and you seeprinciples that in IT are already standard, whichare pretty new in OT. And our mission then was,okay, let's bring all the good principles from theIT world into the automation, operationaltechnology world. And that became ControlX Automation.
So, that's why you have created a new platformcalled ControlX Platform in 2017. But I think it'sa big challenge, right? I think you also at thattime, your approach had so many old customers thatwere using your last generation system.
But now you are trying to push a very new system.It's based on the IT, a totally differentapproach. So, I cannot imagine how you can...Actually, what was your customer, the feeling ofthe customer when you're selling, when you're describing this new platform to them? I think they'revery surprised or something.
Yes. So, we introduced many IT concepts, as Isaid. So, we call this the smartphone ofautomation. So, what kind of principles you haveon your smartphone, you have apps, you are basedon Linux, it looks nice, it's web-based. So, webrought in all this, let's say, standard ITtechnologies into the OT, because we saw manythings from outside affecting the OT.
So, fast technology developments, the IoT stuffand more and more connected devices on the onehand, but also our users are changing. So, theyounger generation of engineers coming fromuniversity, they don't want to use an engineeringtool, which looks from the 90s.
I always say typical automation engineering toolshave this Windows 95 button optics, and you need aspecial programming device, your PG, and you needa special version. Nobody is accepting thesetools. And in the past, you had plenty ofengineers willing to learn this. Nowadays, there'sa shortage of engineers.
There's people with new expectations, digitalnatives, and they just say, go away with your OT,stupid stuff from the museum. I would like to workwith the tools that I know from the internet. Iwould like to work with the studio code. I wouldlike to use Git. Why can't you even do the mostbasic principle things in OT? And that was anadditional driver.
So, what happens afterwards when we presented it,a lot of times, you go to a machine builder. So,this is standard target group is machine buildersor professional automation users. And you presentit and there's a team of 15 people in the room,young engineers, and the decider maybe is in hismid 40s or 50s.
And what always happened is the young engineers,they smile when we present complex automation, andthey like it, and they like the concepts, becausethey think, hey, finally, I have a tool also in OTthat I can work with the way I'm used to. And thedecider is always like, oh, why are they allsmiling? I don't understand concepts. I don'tunderstand what is CI, CD. I don't understandGitHub. I don't understand all these worlds.
So, that's what we are seeing a lot. So, highadoption rate under the younger engineers, andsome question marks under the ones that have beenworking like this the last 25, 30 years. And it'san interesting thing, which gets even acceleratednow with the introduction of AI, but I guess weare going to talk about this at a later stage.
PLCも選べるアプリになる設計
Yeah. So, that's why it's very surprising thatactually, when I first time, I would say, when Ifirst time use the Chondro X, actually, I do notneed to install so much of engineer tubes, becauseactually, I have a Chondro X now in my home. It'sfrom Taiwan. It's a Chondro X Core X3.
So, what I need is just, I need to put an RJ45 LANcable to the Chondro X, and I go to the webserver, and then to log in, and then to downloadthe apps, what I need, and then to activate thelicense so I can use. I only just need to installthe tubes when I need to use PLC or EtherCATconverters.
Then, I also try to read, watch so many YouTubechannels on Bosch. They have so many types ofYouTube channels to tutorial to show you how touse Chondro X by Go, by Python, by C++. They haveso many different types of SDK and open source.You can go to GitHub to download all the examples.
But, you still keep the PLC for the old schoolthat's still inside the Chondro X. So, I'm alittle bit surprised in here. Because now, I wouldsay, Chondro X still can run PLC, right? I thinkit's Kodi Space PLC.
And, I think it's very surprising because I seenow there's so many different types of newsolutions. They just give up, totally give up todon't use PLC, don't use Ether, don't use SD, justuse VS Code, just use something.
But, when I see Chondro X, they still keep theused PLC, give a choice to the engineers to use PLC. I think they are trying to take care of the 14,15 engineers also. Is that correct?
Yes. Yeah, it's exactly the case. Our customers,they have young engineers, but also veryexperienced ones. And, you can use best of bothsides. But, the interesting thing is we don't needthe codes as PLC to make a real-time application.
You can do this in other ways if you don't liketo. The architecture is designed in a way that thePLC function is just an app on the platform thatyou install as you described it. And, the reasonis really because we take the know-how ofeverybody.
And, I always say, you said the Chondro X Core X3,that's our main controller, it should feel to anautomation guy still like an automation device.But, however, to an IT guy, it feels like an ITdevice because we have, let's say, web-basedaccess that you described.
For us, the example was, I'm not sure how you dothis in Japan, configuration of internetconnectivity, DSL. So, it's the same thing. So, wealways said we have a very famous brand for DSLrouters in Germany. It should be as easy as, thebrand is called Fritzbox. So, it should be as easyas in Fritzbox.
So, as a DSL router, how you configure yourinternet, you should be able to configure yourautomation system.
Okay, I get it. And, I would like to shift toanother point that you said the Chondro X platformwill let the users go to another concept calledsmartphone. Is that correct?
So, I also was surprised when I first time to useChondro X because I also a PLC, traditional PLCguy before. If I need to use a new function, whatI need to do, I need to buy a new module. I needto spend around maybe 700 US dollars to buy a newmodule and install inside and configure again.Then, do it one time and one more again and againand again.
I was very surprised that when I tried to use theChondro X, what I need to do, I didn't need to goto your website to download the apps and then toinstall it and then I use it. I think less than 5minutes. If I don't want to use it, I just removeit. It's just like iPhone, really. I just want to...
Could you explain a bit more? What's the concept?Why Chondro X will have this concept of app store?
Yeah, there is a term software defined controllerautomation or manufacturing. I guess maybe inJapan you are also using it. So, in the past, wehad the special controllers like I just mentioned,a motion control for a printing machine, a CNCcontrol. I mean, there's a famous CNC brand fromJapan, a CNC controller for a CNC machine, a robotcontroller for a robot.
All different hardware, different ways ofprogramming, different kind of controller. Youneed to keep them all in stock in case you are anoperator. And I was working for an operator inmaintenance back then when I started 25 years ago.I was working in Scania in Argentina.
So, they had all these kind of different devicesas a spare part. And nowadays, you have a kind ofstandardized hardware that can be everything,motion control, PLC, line control, gateway, and itis everything by the software you load on it.
So, the operator just has, let's say, one devicein stock and the device can be converted dependingon the software you load on it to be a robotcontroller or a PLC. And the value is shiftedtowards software.
And again, if you compare it to IT, you havestandardized servers. And the server runs nomatter the software that can be deployed on theserver.
And again, we took this principle of deploymentlike what you know from the smartphone and said,okay, we have a PLC app, visualization apps, allkind of field buses as an app. So, we split it. Inthe past, everything was like a monolithicsoftware and as a customer, you had to take it allor nothing.
Now, you can really choose the best HMI softwarebecause there are five in the store. Or you choosethe best PLC type or your program in Python. So,we would like to give the choice to the user.
Like in your smartphone, I always compare it.Maybe the weather app that you are using is theone that you are selecting based on your taste andwhat kind of weather information you would like toget. Or your to-do app, I'm sure you are using ato-do app on your smartphone. Or maybe not.
So, you choose what you like and you test the appsand you test maybe also apps on your smartphone.And it's the same principle. On ControlX, you candownload the apps from the store and test them forfree and choose the best software fitting to youruse case. And that's the main part that we wouldlike to have.
That's why we created the marketplace for this.So, in the beginning, we wanted to create anautomation platform. We did not think too muchabout marketplaces and so on. This just came onthe way. We are quite flexible with our strategyin this case.
アプリマーケットとデータレイヤ
I'm very surprised on that. I know that Bosch isalso an automation device manufacturer. Actually,all the manufacturers, they were the first targetto sell the hardware, right? But Bosch is notdoing the same thing. They are trying to sell thesoftware, sell the apps to let the customerschoose what they need. Even if it's not made byBosch, it's also okay. For me, it's verysurprising. It's a very open platform.
We have more apps from third-party companies, sonot coming from Bosch Export in our marketplacenow. We have 120 apps and 60% are from non-BoschExport.
This was part of my work to onboard them. So, Ihave to underline it together with my team. So, I'm very proud of this, that we foster openness. Welet even third-party companies participate in themarketplace and compete against our own apps. Andthat for us is the ultimate proof point foropenness and customer choice.
I see. You can implement your functions. That's upto you. For example, your SDK, you don't need topay. Because in some countries, you need to pay tobuy the SDK, you need to pay to buy thedocumentation. But in CoinRx, all is free that youcan use. How you powerful, how you smart, you cando it.
And I think CoinRx is working at a correct ratebecause now you have AI, so you have so many waysto implement what you want. But I will talk aboutAI a little bit later, so don't worry.
And I'm also very surprised that, for example, Iworry that we have different types of apps, howthey can exchange data. And when I try to install,for example, just take it easy to let the listeners understand. For example, I install the PLCapps, and then I install the OBS UA server apps, Iinstall the Motobus TCP server apps.
So first of all, I have a question. How can Iexchange the data to each other? I know CoinRx hasa very, very fantastic concept called data layer.When I first time explained to the Japaneseengineer, even Takai-san, he thinks this conceptis very, very great.
And I think if possible, Michael, you shouldexplain what is the background of the data layer?How does it come from? How does it make CoinRx tobe a total ecosystem?
Yeah, the data layer, thanks for mentioning,Chris. The data layer is, again, something that welearned from IT. In IT, everything speaks about astandardized API, application program interface.So an interface between the different modules ofsoftware.
For example, REST API, that is also supported byCoinRx. So the data layer, in the past, in thecontrol system, and I configured OPC DA on DaemonPLCs when I was a student.
And it was very difficult to set up data exchangebetween different PLCs because the data was storedin different areas of the PLC. So for us, the datalayer is like an API message bus on the actualdevice.
And you can find all the data of the control, ofthe ControlX enabled control, in a pre-structuredsemantic way. So you can go and see, okay, axisone, velocity. So it's like a semantic tree.
And you can add nodes, apps can add nodes to it.And for example, we have vision apps that add anode for quality information of the vision app. Sothey store the picture and the result of thequality inspection in the data layer.
So since every data is structured, every app canhost data to the data layer, other apps can readfrom it the same point. So you have like a centralway to exchange data in a standardized way. Andyou can access this data layer from outside with OPC UA or REST and have a very easy way, forexample, to read our data via OPC UA.
So you can browse the semantic tree for data andyou can select the ones that you're interested in.So it's an API, it's standardized, pre-structured,and I forgot one thing, it contains real-time andnon-real-time data. So real-time data from the PLC, from the motion control and so on, non-real-time data from any other app.
So that's pretty unique and a very central elementwhere all the apps exchange data. So for example,we have a FANUC app. The FANUC app provides theinterface to the data layer that you can controlthe FANUC robots via the data layer from any appof our system.
So I could now go and program, for example, aPython script that interacts with the FANUC appvia the data layer and then the FANUC app executesthe program on the FANUC side. I can do this inPython, I can do this in my Codeless PLC, I can dothis in any other app, I can do this in Node-REDbecause the FANUC app enables the control of therobot via the data layer.
And this enables standardization. So again,something coming from IT. In IT, you have verymodular software the same way like on a Contellixsystem, and between the modules you have theseAPIs, these interfaces.
And that's maybe the most basic explanation. Andlet's say every app that comes to the systemenriches the data layer with its information.
So after I listened to your explanation, the datalayer is a very standardized interface that allowseach app to exchange data by themselves in real-time or non-real-time so the user and the engineercan implement the task in the way that they need.
MCPとAgent Xeが作るAIオートメーション
So I think before 2022, all the programs wereimplemented by us, by humans. But after 2022, youknow that GPT, Gemini, and Kroto were born and thewhole total world changed.
So I think the data layer can have very goodcollaborations with the AI. So do you have anyuser cases of your end users, how they canactually use the data layer with the AI to changewhat they work for or to change the whole processof their factory or something?
Yeah, maybe one thing to add. On one Contellixdevice, you can also easily sync the data layersof all other devices in one tree. So we have avery nice demo center in southern Germany in Ulm,where we have a lot of Contellix controls and acentral Contellix OS installation with a datalayer and all the data layers are synced to it ona central server instance.
And for machine operators, this is veryinteresting because they can in a very easy wayaccess in a nice manner, let's say, the data oftheir machines. And it's very easy to set upactually.
In terms of usage with AI, we introduced two weeksago at our press event, MCP app for the platform.So MCP is this model context protocol. This isbasically a way how our large language model caninteract with the world or software.
So the MCP app, in our case, comes in the form of,we even created an agent harness called Agent Xe.Xe is our mascot, the smiley that you seeeverywhere. And Agent Xe contains an MCP server,and this gives access to the data layer, forexample, to all large language models.
So now you can connect the large language model toContellix systems and ask the large language modelin the chat window, how are my controllers doing?And it checks on the data layer, for example, thetemperature of the CPU, or you can filter or youcan say, give me the last 10 warnings from lastnight via the MCP. It filters the logbook andgives back a report about the failures.
So we create an easy access for an LLM to an OTsystem. And what we started now also, and this isnow where it becomes interesting, is to set upcomplete automation systems that are Contellixbased with an agent, with Agent Xe and with Claudebehind as a model.
So imagine a three-axis portal. You just paste ina drawing of the length of the axis and the speedthat you want to have. And the Agent Xe, the MCPinterface creates the complete motion setup,creates a complete program, creates the startupvisualization completely.
And this is mind-blowing. If you come, let's say,let's go back to the beginning from the Windows 95based engineering tools. This is mind-blowing howyou can work as an automation engineer with suchsystems nowadays.
So I'm 20 years with the industry and I'm stillamazed when I see what you can do with it. It'sunbelievable.
So that's why I think the data is very powerfulbefore that you can exchange the data by thestandardized. But now with Contellix, they alsohave an AI agent that can direct you to make theactions and then to get the feedback between theAI agent and all the Contellix systems by usingthe data layer.
So I think they're making the magic. Even I cannotsee that, I would say, or I didn't see before,after the PLC, they can have both real-time andnon-real-time API to provide each other for thecontroller.
Even you don't need to configure it. For example,when I use some Japanese PLC, I need to configurenew connections, new user IP connections toconnect to each other. I need to pay the firstbyte, the second byte, the third byte.
But now it's all automated, created automatically,and the AI agent can automatically accept that andget what the operator wants. For example, you sayto filter the alarm log, and then to, for example,to initialize the motion in the demo room, youinitialize the program on the motion or somethingby just using LM.
No need to do the programming anymore. So I thinkthere's a very great future.
新しい課金モデルと開発者コミュニティ
And that's why I want to read your, actually,before today's broadcast, I read Michael to writepaper. Now, let's say that now our engineerautomation is facing three problems, cost saving,and short lead time, and new business model,right?
So by using this ecosystem that we've opened inthe phase of open source, then you can save thecost, you can use so many different ways to createyour own system, and then finally, as you say, youcan create your new model.
So I think the changing the automation work, isthat correct?
Yeah, absolutely. And for example, faster leadtime or to be quicker with automation, yeah, youcan use Agent Xe, but you could also use many ofthe pre-made apps that are available on theplatform. You don't need to program everything byyourself again.
The new business models, it's interesting, manymachine builders, they also develop apps forControlX for themselves, but they are thinkingabout, okay, we can put them also to yourmarketplace and gain some additional revenue.
Or we have in our partner network also, let's saymore IT companies creating apps for the OT worldand getting access to this. So those are just someexamples of the points that you mentioned.
Yes, and I have other questions, so let's go backto digital apps. Because for apps, I think youalso mentioned two concepts, pay-per-use and pay-per-part. I think this is a very new concept inOT, because in OT, if I buy a hardware, so I canuse it, I don't need to pay, I don't need to subscribe, I don't need to pay for each month,
for example, I need to add some new functions, Ineed to pay again, I think it's very confusing forthem, right?
Yeah, and honestly, I'm not sure how fast or quickthis will be implemented.
Subscribing to software, which is then includedinto a machine, which is then sold to an operator.We have some subscription apps in the store, butwe offer also from the same subscription apps, one-time payment licenses.
And we see that in our world, people prefer this.The pay-per-part thing, I once asked a foodproducing company that is famous here in Europe,coming from Switzerland, would you pay yourchocolate bar per packaged chocolate bar?
And he was like, not really, because the machinewe buy them after four or five years, they aredepreciated from the tax. So basically after fouror five years, they don't have any cost theirprinting money.
So the pay-per-business case, I see promoted fromTrump, for example, this laser cutting machinesfrom Germany, maybe this works in certain areas,but not in general, I would say. People like themore classical thing, I buy once a device, I buymy software once, I get certain updates, you know,and try to avoid subscriptions, at least in theindustry.
In Europe, maybe in Japan, it's different.
Same. I would say in Japan, it's difficult. Forexample, the first part is that when I buy Controlex, why I need to pay the money to run the PLCagain? You know, I need to buy the money to paythe apps.
Yeah, because the controller is very economic fromthe price point.
Yeah, and it's just the IPC, right? It's not PLC,it's the IPC, but maybe there's somemisunderstanding on this point.
Okay, so we talked about apps. So the other thingI need to mention is the Controlex OS community. Iactually favor this area because I think I askedmore than 10 or 20 questions on there.
Okay.
And there's so many engineers, there's someengineers that work in Controlex, right? They'reanswering the questions.
Yeah, there's a support concept behind of ourapplication team and some developers even answerdirectly.
Yeah, and I think it's very successful because inJapan, some manufacturers also like to do the samething, but they cannot continue longer and longerbecause I see that Controlex started in 2017, butnow you still have this OS community.
And each day we also have new questions and yourengineer is still very working hard to try tosolve the problem to provide a source code or toprovide something. Actually, I cannot believe thatwhat you're doing.
Yeah, but again, here we can learn from IT. Themost famous open source projects, they have veryactive communities supporting it and developingsoftware and answering questions in forums.
So it's a pattern, again, it's a pattern that isstandard in IT. So if you ask me why did youintroduce a new automation platform, it has beenintroduced in 2019 and end of 2019, beginning of2020.
So for us, it was crucial that we need to engagewith the developer community and that we need toprovide also an online forum where they canexchange, where they can even use nicknames, sonot the real names. So I'm not sure who are you onthe platform, by the way.
And openly discuss about problems that youencounter. But this is a standard thing that youwould do and go on Stack Overflow or Reddit, allthese PLC forums. So for us, we needed to have anonline community for the developers and a GitHubsoftware development kit based on GitHub where weprovide examples how to use the data layer.
So for us, we call this persona, Daniel Developer.So Daniel Developer was in our focus and in ourheart to be giving him the best tools to work withthe platform. So our Daniel Developer is the ChrisChang. So the real guy touching the product.
Yeah, thank you. But by the way, if they don'tknow what is the Contrux OS community, please goto Google to search it. And Contrux OS communityis just a forum with so much different tutorialswith real engineers that work in Contrux that aresupporting you every day. Even if you ask aquestion today, you will get the answer in themidnight.
CRAと産業制御のセキュリティ
So it's a very great platform that I even I didn'tsee this type of platform before. So please searchin Google. Okay. Okay. So we talked about the Contrux OS community. So now I would like to talkabout something that Japan, not just Japan, Ithink the whole world now is very painful. It'sour CRA.
Do you also have a CRA, Cyber Resilience Act? Doyou also have a similar thing in Japan?
Yes, we do. We don't know what we can do. Therules are changing every day. So what we can do isjust ask. Now I have a customer, so they ask morethan 30% of engineers to focus on the CRA team andthen to prepare the firmware update and then toprepare all these documentations and all thisstuff.
And they really want to kill themselves. They needto work very hard every day. So how about Contrux,do you have any same problem or now we have any?
First of all, I think it's a very good thing thatsystems or initiatives or laws like the Cyber Resilience Act in Europe are being implemented.Because for those of us who have been workinglonger in OT automation, we know how unsecure isan older PLC.
So you can still go on special search engines andlook for PLCs that are openly connected to theInternet and you can stop a water supply of a cityor village by this.
So this is due to the fact that in the past mostOT equipment was not connected and was running andthere was nobody wanting to have data out of it.
Now we all want to have data out of our PLCs andthe PLCs become more connected and more connectedmeans higher risk of cyber attacks.
Because people understand that they can do harm byattacking a PLC. So it's a good thing that theselaws are implemented.
And yeah, it's a pain for somebody who really hasto implement it or has to see if his production isfollowing the Cyber Resilience Act.
So the Cyber Resilience Act in Europe is mainlyfor component suppliers like us. We need toprovide security updates for our components overtime.
And we need to declare when there are somesecurity problems on public pages that customerscan inform themselves about it.
And we need to design also the products havingsecurity in mind.
And so actually when we developed Controlix in2017, it was already on the horizon that cybersecurity will be more and more important.
So we took a lot of security developmentprinciples into its development.
And when you start up a Controlix Core, acontroller today, it is also what we call secureby default.
So for example, I always tell this joke, but it'strue.
You can probably log into any old PLC with theusername, the brand and the password is also thebrand.
So Bosch Rexroth should give you access maybe toolder models of our company.
When you do this with a Controlix device, you canonly do this one time and then you need to changethe password.
And this is security by default.
So we help now people that are in love or in painwith the CIA by providing them, for example, Controlix Core as a secure gateway.
So you can secure unsecure OT devices that arebehind it in the network.
So many people do network segmentation, forexample, and they can put a Controlix device as agateway and install the firewall
and the VPN on it and protect the machine networkthat is behind.
And by using this, you can already fulfill some ofthe requirements that are coming from these cybersecurity legislations.
We are certified with IEC 62443, that is asecurity standard.
And for example, a device having this standard isregarded as ready for Cyber Security Act.
So our customers use it then to install it as agateway to protect their machines.
Or when they design a new machine, they knowalready that the system is very secure
and that we will be providing the security updatesover a certain time for the software.
I have a question.
So I know that Bosch will take care of the wholeControlix Core, the whole ecosystem for thesecurity updates
and for all the apps that is provided from Controlix Bosch.
So what happens to the apps that are provided fromthe third party if they have problems?
So what can we do? What is the process of that?
Because it's not directly to the Bosch, right?
So what happens? What kind of process do we needat that time?
So a third-party app is validated by us.
There is on GitHub an app guideline on how todevelop or should develop its app.
And we are checking these points.
And we have certain integration points into oursystem.
So an app can access the data layer, but it's nota must.
It can use the user management.
It can use the certificate management.
It can use several integration points.
And when the app is using all the integrationpoints that we provide,
basically the app developer is almost free fromthe Cyber Resilience Act obligations.
Because we take care of the rest because the appis sandboxed also.
So certain, let's say, part of our apps in theportfolio,
they can be installed and the system stays CIA-compliant.
There's part of it where probably you lose thiscertification when you install the app.
But this is also valid with other systems.
So the best way is always to integrate and use allthe integration points,
especially that are made for cybersecurity.
And then the app developer can concentrate on hisfunction
and does not take care of security or implementits own certificate management
or implement its own secure user management, forexample.
Yeah, that's why I asked these questions.
Because I know that in August of this year, there's a big news from the US
that you know that the thickness of Germanmanufacturers,
the PLC is very easy to attack.
There's a PLC that if you don't set the correctrate,
you can overwrite or read all the memory.
So that's why I asked also these questions,
what is ConjureX thinking about security.
I know that ConjureX also provides the apps forthe VPN,
for security for the firewall.
So it's not other PLC manufacturers that do that.
So that's why I think that ConjureX also takescare on this part.
Yes.
Okay, thank you.
And I would like to also ask you so manyquestions.
And the next question is what I asked you is,
ctrlX OSのOEM展開と利用事例
for example, now I'm using ConjureX X3.
So it's 100% made by Bosch.
So I think two years or three years before,
I know that Bosch has a collaboration with Vargoto make an IPC.
I think it's IPC with the ConjureX OS.
And then I know that in this year,
they also have HMI manufacturer.
They designed to use the ConjureX OS.
Then I know that Bosch also has a collaborationwith Dell
or so many big manufacturers to work.
So what is this type of collaboration on theirside?
Yeah, thanks for mentioning, Chris.
So with all cybersecurity requirements,
the AI stuff and so on,
it's very, let's say, cost intensive to develop.
And let's say, IT or OT device nowadays.
And so we have been approached by Vargo and theywere asking,
okay, can we have your operating system because welike it,
we see what you have.
And our developers were actually also proposingsomething like this.
And then why should they develop something that isalready existing?
They can more concentrate on differentiation onthe apps on top of it.
So this is how we started the model of giving theoperating system to other companies.
And you can compare this a bit, coming back to thesmartphone world,
you can compare this with Android.
So you get Android-based smartphones from a lot ofbrands.
And I always say our mission here is to create anindustrial Android
that can be executed not only on Bosch Rexalldevices,
but also on Vargo devices, on Advantech IPCs,
on Compute-on-Modules, Hong Kong Tech,
and also from our newest partners that you werejust mentioning.
One is Großenbacher, but this is a very Swiss name
and they use the brand KUBUNI now.
It's easier to pronounce worldwide.
So they create HMI PLCs.
But we also have a new partner that creates asmart camera with Kontrol XOS on it.
And now the smart camera can also do PLC tasks.
Imagine this.
So we have now seven, what we call Kontrol XOS OEMs
that are implementing Kontrol XOS on theirdevices.
With Dell, it's a virtual version, for example.
We want that people just only depend on us.
For example, if a customer needs a more powerfulIPC than what we have,
he can go to Advantech and get a ruggedized Advantech IPC with Kontrol XOS.
So the customer again has the choice of device,
not only choice of apps that we had already talkedabout,
but also choice of device.
And this KUBUNI brand, they create entry-level PLC,
which is from the performance level under our XV,
which is our entry-level PLC.
So they created a PLC from the performance level,
and also price level, which is under our own Kontrol XOS.
So we create a nice portfolio, and the way how youchoose apps,
you choose now an HMI PLC, the one-in-all device,
or a smart camera, or an IPC for ruggedized,
because I don't know what you want to do with it.
So again, here, that's the choice.
And that became also part of my job,
to find companies that are interested in hostingKontrol XOS.
We have some contacts also in Japan.
Yes, my boss, he used to work in the Japanesemarket for Bosch,
in the motorcycle business.
And he was back now some weeks,
to visit two or three Japanese companies that wereinterested in seeing it.
Now we have recorded this on podcast, but okay.
I didn't mention the names.
Don't worry, we will have a Japanese script in thefinal.
So the Japanese listeners will know what we aretalking about.
Don't worry.
I actually have to forward your podcast to ourJapanese contacts that we have,
and say, hey, look.
Yeah, sure.
This is not our first time to talk about KontrolX, okay?
Okay, good, good.
And that's why I feel very,
it's very recent, I would say,
with great efficiency that,
you told me that for all the different hardware,
they have the same Kontrol X.
So what they mean, they can use the same apps inyour marketplace.
They can have the same interface with the datalayer.
They share data very easy.
They have the same security level,
because the Kontrol X OS actually,
they will respond to all the security updates,
to all the security stuff.
So now I think the manufacturer,
they don't need to spend more resources to developtheir OS.
They can just pay.
I don't know how they do pay for you,
but I think it's more cheaper to develop their OS.
That's why, in your white paper,
you also mentioned to increase the productivity,
and then to feel the resources required to releasea new product,
because they are using their OS,
they can just build their own apps on that.
So we have more flexibility productions.
I think in the future,
and even I didn't see so many other manufacturers,
they can just sell the OS to,
hey, please install to your platform.
As I mentioned in the beginning,
all the PLC manufacturers, all the automation manufacturers,
they would like to sell the hardware more thansoftware.
Yeah, and if I may add, Chris,
you can now even go to our website,
KontrolX-OS.com
and download an image for Intel x86 or AMD 64,
and install Kontrol X OS on, let's say, any PC,
and test it for four hours, okay?
This is available to download.
For those of you who like to have a more, let'ssay,
PLC-like experience and not just a plain image,
you can also download our KontrolX WorksEngineering
and have a virtual KontrolX Core and test it forfree.
Okay, so you don't need to go to Taiwan, you said,
you get your x3 from, right?
You don't need to go there.
You can just download from the website
and test it.
Okay.
It's available for free for testing.
And also all the KontrolX OS devices
are now AI-enabled
with HN-x3 app that can be installed, again,
as an app and you can use it
with your favorite large language model that youlike.
I see, I get it.
Okay, I forgot what I would like to ask.
I know that KontrolX now
started from 2017.
Could you tell me a little bit about some usecases of KontrolX
of how your customers use KontrolX
to what kind of applications they're using?
Sure.
It's very interesting.
We know that KontrolX is a very powerful platform
but we cannot imagine how
what kind of applications can be
fully used for this platform.
Will you tell us some use cases?
Yeah, one of our pilot customers is the companySimcorp from Finland.
They are actually belonging to a big Japanesegroup
and they are doing
tire handling.
So they handle big tires
with big three-axis portals.
That was one of our pilot customers.
We have also a German company called Dambach.
They are doing storage,
these high storage buildings.
We also have one here in our main plant
and they are doing the little shuttles
going through the storage to get the material.
We have a Bosch unit that uses KontrolX
in a supermarket application in the US.
Supermarket.
Yeah, a big supermarket chain from the US.
They use it as a gateway
to install firmware on the cameras behind.
It's a very different application.
We have packaging machine builders, obviously.
Delta robots controlled with it
or six-axis robots controlled with it.
And we are entering new markets for us
like energy.
Siemens Energy is a spin-off from Siemens.
It has been separated some years back
and they are building gas turbines
to generate electricity for the data centers.
They use KontrolX as an IoT layer
on top of their assets like a gas turbine,
like a wind park.
We are in building automation.
There is a Bucknet app available for KontrolX
and you can use the same system
to make a building automation
and machine automation in the same building.
What else comes to my mind?
Battery, obviously, battery assembly.
There are some public projects.
Yeah, what else?
Food printing, printing machines,
tunnel installations.
Yeah, many interesting industries
are approached with this.
Okay, thank you, thank you.
Okay, so now we are at the use case.
Now I would like to ask you other questions.
AMD協業とSPSの見どころ
Because before this podcast,
I read your webpage in a little bit of detail.
I know there's very big news in this year
that KontrolX is having a collaboration with AMD.
I think now KontrolX is really decided
to step into the AI area.
Now it is a hot topic.
Could you tell me a little bit more
what KontrolX would like to do
in the next 10 years with the AI,
with these collaborations or something?
Yeah, AMD, it's interesting.
Two years back,
they brought the company Xilinx.
And Xilinx is our main processor,
Xilinx processor for the X3
when we started the platform in 2019.
So let's say we are in touch with AMD since long
because they brought Xilinx two years back.
Now, today, with AMD,
we have one interesting use case.
Coming back to the AI stuff,
I talked about Agent Xe
and how it helps the engineering.
Our Agent Xe can take any large language model
to interact with.
So can be cloud-based,
the ones that you mentioned,
but can be also local models.
And in our demonstrator,
there is a high-performance IPC
with a new AMD chip inside
which runs a local open-weight language model.
I read recently,
there's also a new model coming from Japan.
And so you can have in your machine
a high-performance IPC with an AMD processor
running local AI
because maybe you don't have internet connectivity
when you ship the machine
and you can use local AI with AMD powered.
I forgot the name of this platform.
It has a weird name.
Let's say it's very well capable to execute
or to make AI inference.
And we are also looking with AMD.
So they want to enter a little bit more
into the embedded world where we are.
How can they make their chips perfect
to work with real-time and stuff
and requirements that we have.
They also would like to get your know-how
because Bosch has been working more than 100 years
in the total factory automation.
So they have so many know-how
on how to make the stuff
in a high temperature,
dirty and so many dust areas.
So I think they would also like to get some know-how
from your side.
Yeah, for sure.
And they would like to understand
what are the requirements of our industry
to improve the chip design for us.
And there are certain areas
which are growing a lot
and it could be interesting to work together
on embedded systems.
And that was the reason
we adopted our operating system to AMD processors
but also to processors from NXP to Intel
I already mentioned.
Because then the customer can use a chip
that he would like to use for his application
and an operating system with ControlX OS
that works well on it.
Okay, I hope that ControlX will succeed
because I read the books around
and it's talking about Intel and FANUC.
They also have very similar collaboration
like you are doing.
I think it's 1980 something
they also do the same collaborations
to make the first CNC in the world.
The Intel, they also don't have the know-how
how to make the chips in the industry area.
So I think you are doing the same story.
I hope you will succeed.
I will also watch your update.
Thank you.
I really feel like your platform
is the future of automation
and not just buy a hardware PLC
and install software to buy a new module
and then do the same thing.
I don't need to buy so many different types ofstocks
inside each module
to keep 10 or 12 stocks.
I think it's the next generation of manufacturing.
Okay, I think I would like to ask you somequestions.
Yes, I would like to ask you a question about SPS.
It's a very big event, right?
In each year, you have two big events of SPS.
One is in Italy and one is in Germany.
So now we take the broadcast in October
and SPS will be in November.
So could you just give me some information
about what kind of new products
or new releases will be in SPS in this year?
Yeah, so SPS for an automation engineer,
I always say this is like Christmas
for an automation engineer.
I remember going to that fair when I was a student
so I'm an automation engineer student.
We went there with a bus to see the news.
So it's end of November in Nuremberg in Germany
and this is where all the major Europeanautomation companies
show their news basically.
So yeah, we have a press event that happened twoweeks ago
where we show already most of the news
that the press can really also publish it
and for us, the biggest topic this year will be AI
and HNX and what it can do
that we will show on different use cases on thefair.
So that's our main thing.
And we obviously also have always our partnerswith us on the booth.
So we just talked about AMD.
They will be there showing their architecture
to run local LLMs, for example.
We have the Kossenbacher guys, Kobini on the booth
and we have on our platform itself
several news in regards to safety.
So you know now you can do safety only withsoftware.
Have you heard about that?
Yes.
The safety PLC app
and the difference is when to use software-basedsafety
or hardware-based safety in terms of reactiontime.
This is news, this app.
Let me think about what else to present.
Yeah, and there are some, let's say new parts,
members of the family.
There's an economic motor and drive version aswell.
So we keep extending the platform
but let's say the platform is 90% ready almost
and the differences year by year are more and moreinto software.
And this year, the MCP-based HN-XE
is our biggest fan use of the app.
Are you in the booth on that week?
Yeah, sure.
I will be there for those of you who are around.
You can contact me on LinkedIn and I'll show youaround.
Are you coming over, Chris?
Nah, this year I cannot.
Maybe Takahasan, he will. I don't know.
Maybe he will.
But I would like to ask this question.
There are so many listeners in this podcast.
They will go to SPS, Germany and Italy.
So if there is any listener,
they would like to go to SPS, please visit Bosch,
Connecticut Automation booth and then to findMichael.
I will be around.
We are in Hall 7.
Hall 7 is anyway the most important hall of thefair.
Also our competition is there that is quitefamous.
So Hall 7 is not to be missed.
Feel free to come around.
Say you are listening to Chris' podcast,
you get a free meal and a drink from me.
Yeah, sure.
Takahasan, okay?
You can get a free meal and drink some drinks onthat.
Okay, I think we spent one hour on this podcast.
Finally, I would like to have Michael'sconclusion.
Do you have something you would like to say to ourJapanese listeners?
No, first of all, I would like to thank you forthe invitation.
Chris, you are doing a great work.
Communicating in the Japanese market,
all the news and sending out these nice postcardsas always.
And for the Japanese listeners,
please have a look on technology,
on what is available in the OT.
I see the automation still dominated by biggerbrands
that lock in their customers.
And people really think there's not much news
and it's always the same PLC as it used to be.
Have a look around on maybe not the big elephants,
on the smaller ones, but the more innovative ones.
And have a look on their technology.
And you are promoting perfectly us
and also the others in your community in Japan.
I'm happy to support you.
But please embrace new technology and try the newthings.
Connect cloud code to a PLC and see what happens.
It's magic in some ways.
Instead of always relying on the same thing
like it used to be the last 10 or 20 or 30 years.
That would be my mission or my wish.
Embrace the new stuff.
Thank you for promoting it.
Making people aware of it.
Also, let me just do a small conversion.
First of all, thanks Michael to join this podcast.
I have the same thing I would like to ask.
Please try to use,
try to feel that what Controlex platform is.
You can go to their website,
download images, install any PC.
You can buy a mini PC on Amazon and install it.
You can try to use a platform
that's really like a smartphone.
Let's say I do the presentation last year.
You then install and remove the apps
any time that you want.
But you still have the latest security updates.
You can share the data by using data layer.
I realized that the Controlex platform is stillvery young.
It started from 2017.
So what they mean is,
they can still grow up very fast.
I think, Michael,
before the first version of Controlex,
Controlex is not just a baby anymore, right?
It grew up and grew up.
Now it's not like 1.0.
Now it's 3.something.
No, we are at 4.6.
This is like fifth or sixth major release already.
So it has matured over time.
They grew up every year.
It's a very young platform.
You still need so many different types ofengineers
to support that,
to get some feedback on this platform to grow up.
I even didn't see a platform
that they don't sell the hardware too much onthat.
So I'm very surprised on that.
There's a feeling that Controlex Automation
is really a very open platform.
Please try to use that.
If you have a problem,
you can contact me
and you can contact Michael directly also.
On LinkedIn or in the Controlex OS community.
Thanks for your time today.
Michael, I will send a postcard to you
at the end of this year and for Christmas.
Arigato, Chris-san.
Arigato, thank you.
Thank you.
Have a good day.
See you next time.
Okay, thank you.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
