00:09
ひさぽん
旅好き 煩悩夫婦の道草食ってく。 This program is a podcast about a couple who moved to Nagano Prefecture, who love to travel and play outside, talking about what they felt while taking a detour in life.
番組パーソナリティのひさぽんとかなえです。です。です。です。 Today's BGM is 波の音。イエイ。イエイ。 Where are you today?
波照間島の旅
かなえ
はい、昨日から私たちは日本の最南端の島、波照間島に来ています。 Yes, yesterday we came to the southernmost island of Japan, Hateruma Island.
ひさぽん
そうですね、友人最南端の島、波照間島です。 Yes, it is the southernmost island of my friend, Hateruma Island.
かなえ
昨日はね、お天気にも恵まれて、結構八重山行きの船は航路が荒れやすいから結構することもしばしばあるそうなんですけど、 Yesterday, the weather was also good, and the boat going to Hateruma Island had a rough course, so it was easy to get lost.
朝から船も出てね、お日様が出てる中で島を一周することもできました。 Yesterday, the boat left in the morning, and we were able to go around the island in the sun.
ひさぽん
そうですね、今日が二日目、波照間の二日目でね、今が二時十分ぐらい。 Yes, today is the second day in Hateruma, and it is about 2 o'clock now.
かなえ
夕方の船で帰ります。 Yes, we will go back by evening boat.
ひさぽん
あと二時間ぐらいのHaterumaを浜でだらだら過ごすとかいう、Haterumaらしい過ごし方をしております。 We will spend about two hours in Hateruma on the beach.
かなえ
今いるのがどこかっていうとね、ウラピナの浜っていうところになるみたいですよ。 We are now at Urapina Beach.
ひさぽん
ウラピナの浜ね、ここは穴場だよね。 Yes, Urapina Beach. This is a hole.
かなえ
そう、何も看板とか出てなくてね、本当にGoogleマップで見て、ここ行ってみようかーっつって来たらすごいよかったよね。 I didn't see any signs, so I just googled it.
ひさぽん
こじんまりとしてて、泳げないですよね、遊泳禁止なんですけど、砂浜じゃなくて珊瑚なんですよね、ここ詰まっているのが全部珊瑚で、この音聞こえますかね。 You can't swim here, it's not allowed to swim, but it's coral, not the beach.
歩くとね、珊瑚がカリンカリンカリンっていうのが聞こえて、波の音とね、すごいいい感じだよね。 When you walk, you can hear the sound of corals.
なんで、ザクザクの珊瑚の上に座り込んでね、お昼寝をするとかいうね、ちょっとお尻の痛いことをしてましたと。 So, you can sit on the rough coral and take a nap.
今、本当はね、一番有名なところは西浜っていうところが結構広いビーチが有名なんだけど。 Right now, the most famous place is Nishihama, which has a wide beach.
そこ泳いでもいいらしいっていうね。 It seems that you can swim there.
ひさぽん
今はね、気温も寒いし、風もあるので、まだ泳ぐ時期ではないですね。 It's cold and windy now, so it's not the time to swim yet.
かなえ
はい、で、ハテルマの印象は? What is your impression of Hateruma?
ひさぽん
どこまで行っても海綺麗だしさ、サトウキビ畑だよね。 The sea is beautiful wherever you go. There are a lot of sunflowers.
サトウキビ。 There are a lot of sunflowers.
サトウキビ多いよね。 There are a lot of sunflowers.
サトウキビしかないよね、むしろ。 There are only sunflowers.
かなえ
しかない。 There are only sunflowers.
ひさぽん
しかないよね。 There are only sunflowers.
普通の畑ちょっとしか見なかったね。 I've only seen a little of the normal field.
かなえ
そうそうそう。なんかね、いい意味でね、観光地化されてない感じがするね。 I feel like Hateruma is not a tourist destination in a good way.
ひさぽん
そうだね、本当にね。 I agree.
なんかいろんな旅好きな人に聞くと、やっぱりハテルマいいよってみんな言うんだけど、わかりましたね。 I've heard a lot of people say that Hateruma is a good place to visit, but I understand.
かなえ
観光地化されてなくて、のんびりしてて、なんかもともとこんな感じだったのかなっていう感じの暮らしがあってね、すごくいいですね。 It's not a tourist destination, it's relaxing, and it's a good place to live.
ハテルマは黒糖が有名なんだよね。砂糖作り、黒糖作りを島をあげて、みんなでそれを取り組んでやってるっていう感じの島だね。 Hateruma is famous for its brown sugar, right? They make brown sugar on the island, and they all work on it together.
ひさぽん
島の産業イコール生糖、砂糖を作るっていうのが。島のほとんどがね、サトウキビ畑なんで、それをみんなで倒して収穫して。 The island's industry equals making brown sugar. Most of the island is in the里木畑, so they all kill it and harvest it.
里木美工場24時間稼働って言ってたね。 It's a 24-hour factory.
かなえ
止めないでやってるって言ってたね。 They do it without stopping.
ひさぽん
止めないで。そこに、とうきびを無限に供給するために、みんなたちが頑張ってるっていう絵ですね。 It's a picture of how they're doing their best to supply all the brown sugar to the island.
かなえ
今ちょうどね、きび刈りのシーズンなんだよね。 It's the season for brown sugar harvesting now, isn't it?
ひさぽん
そうですね、ちょうどらしいですね。 That's right.
かなえ
だから島の外からも結構、働きに来て、内地から来てる人とかも結構いるみたいで。 So there are quite a few people who come from the mainland to work on the island.
何と言いますか、アルバイトでね。結構来て、とうきび刈りの手伝いをして、今年はね、なんか生育がいいらしく、4月までね、なんかあるらしいですね。 That's right.
なんか夏に植えるやつが今の時期で来て。 And now there's something you can plant in the summer.
ひさぽん
そうね、1年半かけて育てるやつと、春に植えたやつは1年、その年の終わりに出荷するって言ったんで。 Yeah, the one that's been growing for a year and a half, and the one that's been planted in spring is going to be shipped at the end of the year.
かなえ
それのサイクルでやってるから、夏に植えたやつの1年半後のやつが今、出荷されてるんだから。 They're doing it in a cycle, so the one that's been planted in the summer and the one that's been shipped in a year and a half.
ひさぽん
トウキビ畑いっぱいあるんだけど、ちっちゃいやつ、植えたばっかりのやつと、すごい成長してるやつと、いろいろ、チーズをずらしてやってるぐらいだね。 There are a lot of tokibi fields, but there are small ones, just planted ones, and ones that are growing a lot, and there are a lot of them.
やっぱら年中いつ来てもトウキビ畑はありますよって言ってましたね。 They say that there are tokibi fields all year round.
すごいな、1年ずっとトウキビを絶やさない島ですね。 It's an island that doesn't let tokibi grow all year round.
かなえ
あとね、ヤギが多い。 And there are a lot of goats.
ひさぽん
ヤギいっぱいいますね。 There are a lot of goats.
ヤギだらけ。 There are a lot of goats.
ちょっと反応してるのかわいいね。 It's cute how they react.
かなえ
そう、小ヤギもいっぱいいてね。 Yeah, there are a lot of little goats.
みんな観光客とかはさ、手振ったりさ、寄ってて写真撮ったりしてるけどさ、夜聞いたらね、あれは食肉用だから石垣に送るんだよって言ってたのに。 Yeah, everyone's waving at the tourists and taking pictures. When I asked them at night, they said, that's for meat, so they send it to the stones.
波照間島の文化と教育
ひさぽん
沖縄でよく食べられるヤギ汁とかあるじゃないですか。 Yeah, there's a lot of goat soup that you can eat in Okinawa.
かなえ
ヤギ文化だからね。 Yeah, it's goat culture.
ヤギはミネラルいっぱいの草を食べて育つから、お肉もおいしくなるんだね。 They eat grass full of minerals, so their meat tastes good.
ひさぽん
ハテルマさんのヤギはおいしいって評判らしいですね。 I heard that Hateruma's goats are famous for being delicious.
だからわざわざね、ヤギないかって言って、石垣の人から連絡が来たりするとかって言ってたね。 Yeah, so I asked if there were any goats, and I got a call from a stone-cutter.
かなえ
あと牛もチラホラいたけど、それも甲子を石垣に売ってるってね、セリンがしてるって言ってましたね。 Yeah, there were some cows, but they were also sold to stone-cutters.
何かそんな感じで、あとのんびりしてたね。 Yeah, it was like that, and it was relaxing.
保育所とね、学校もね、あるんだけど、すごい綺麗で、二、三年前に綺麗にしたばかり。 There was a nursery and a school, but it was very clean. It was only cleaned two or three years ago.
ひさぽん
建て替えたってね、なんかインフラが結構来てたから、建て替えたらしいですね。 Yeah, they had a lot of infrastructure, so they changed it.
かなえ
意外と子供もいたよね。 Yeah, there were a lot of kids.
ひさぽん
学校でも結構いたね。なんかね、逆に島の中心地に学校が一つしかないので、もうそこにみんな、子供がみんな集まってるって感じ。 Yeah, there were a lot of kids, but there was only one school in the center of the island, so there were a lot of kids.
かなえ
そうだね、外で遊ばないね。あそこでばっかり遊んでるから。逆にあそこ以外ではみない。 Yeah, they didn't play outside. They played there all the time, so they didn't see anything outside.
ひさぽん
そうね、学校の周りにいっぱいいましたね。いましたねって、動物みたいに言っちゃった。 Yeah, there were a lot of animals around the school.
かなえ
島のつくりとしてはね、ちょっと丸い島なんですけど、横に楕円形が。島の中心が集落になっていて、集落が高いんだよね。 Yeah, the island is a little round, but the center of the island is a village, and the village is high.
ひさぽん
他の上と言いますか、一番海拔の高いところにあって、集落が一番高いところにあって、その周りが畑で、あと海岸線って感じですね。 Yeah, it's on the top of the hill, at the highest point of the desert, and the village is at the highest point, and around it is the field and the coastline.
面白いのが灯台がさ、島の中心部にあったんだよね。 Yeah, the lighthouse was in the center of the island.
かなえ
そう、中心が一番高いから、でもそこでも54メートル? 54だか56だかそんなもんで、60ないけど。 Yeah, the center is the highest point, but it's still 54 meters high.
ひさぽん
60ない。島の一番高いところでも50メートルぐらい。 It's not 60. It's about 50 meters at the highest point of the island.
かなえ
なんか島の先端にあるイメージだったからさ、灯台が。 Yeah, I thought it was at the tip of the island, the lighthouse.
ひさぽん
そうね、だいたい東西南北の端っこにあるんだよね。 Yeah, it's usually at the end of the southeast.
かなえ
なんか中心にあるっていうのがすごい面白かった。 It was really interesting that it was in the center.
泡盛と地元の特産
ひさぽん
これなら一個でいいやんって。 Oh, I see.
かなえ
なるほど、そういうことなんか。 I see, I see.
あとね、聞いた情報によるとね、果てる間は石垣から遠いから、結構インフラもしっかりしてるなんてね。 Yeah, I see. And from what I've heard, Hateruma is far from Ishigaki, so the infrastructure is pretty solid.
ひさぽん
そうだね、単独でやっていかないといけないからということでね、焼酷炉があったりとか。 Yeah, you have to do it alone, so there's an incinerator.
かなえ
火力は弱いんだけどね、処理ができると言ってたね。 Well, the firepower is weak, but the processing is possible.
あと下水もあるし。 And there's sewage.
島自体は一周何キロになるんだい? How many kilometers does it take to get around the island?
ひさぽん
一周17キロ? 20キロないぐらいだった気がする。 About 17 kilometers? I think it's less than 20 kilometers.
かなえ
一周するの自体は本当に自転車で1時間もあれば行けちゃうか? Is it possible to cycle around the island in one hour?
まあ、まだ何も見なければ全然1時間ちょっとで、観光しながら行っても全然半日あれば回れちゃうねっていう感じに。 Well, if you don't see anything, you can cycle around for about an hour or so.
ひさぽん
観光するとこもぶっちゃけないって言ったら失礼ですけど、なんかディープスポットみたいなので、興味もって自分から興味もって行かないと、浜しかないよって感じですね。 Well, it's rude to say that there's nothing to see, but it's like a deep spot, so you have to be interested in it yourself.
西浜と世界最南端の火が有名かな? Is Nishihama and the world's southernmost fire famous?
特に有名かな。それ以外はないかな。 It's not particularly famous.
それ以外はディープだよね。 Other than that, it's deep.
ディープだね。基本的に昔の古い戸とかね、そういうのになってきたので。 It's deep. Basically, it's like the old ruins.
かなえ
あとマラリアの火とかね。 Also, the fire of malaria.
ひさぽん
昔の矢倉、呪われてたね。 It's like the yagura that was cursed.
かなえ
コートモリね。 Koutomori.
ひさぽん
マニアックですので、その辺自分で調べていくとすごい歴史が知れて面白かったかもしれないですね。 I was a maniac, so I did some research and it was interesting to know the history.
かなえ
あとお土産で有名なのは泡盛ね。 And the famous souvenir is Awamori.
ひさぽん
泡盛ですね。 It's called Awamori.
かなえ
泡波っていう。 It's called Awanami.
ひさぽん
これは有名ですよね。酒飲む間ではものすごく有名。 This is famous. It's very famous when you're drinking.
どうでしたか? How was it?
めちゃめちゃ美味しかった。 It was very delicious.
美味しかったし、石垣とかでも売ってはいるんですけど、 It was delicious, and you can buy it at Ishigaki,
結構プレミア値段になってて高いんですよね。 but it's a premium price and expensive.
果てるまでは当然定価で手に入るので。 Of course, you can get it at a low price until you sell it.
今は直営店もありますのでね、淡波坂店という直営店で買うと定価で買えます。 You can get it at a low price if you buy it at a direct sale.
美味しかったです。 It was delicious.
自分用にって買ったのに、結局宿のね、ゆんたくでいただいたのでね、 I bought it for myself, but I got it at the hotel, so I couldn't open it for myself.
もう美味しかったですね。 It was delicious.
かなえ
フルーティーな感じだったね。 It was fruity.
ひさぽん
フルーティーな感じ。なんかね、良い日本酒みたいな感じでしたね。 It was fruity. It was like a good Japanese sake.
美味しかったですね。 It was delicious.
かなえ
そんな感じかな。 Something like that.
で、泊まってるところがね、なかなかまたディープな感じで。 And the place where we stayed was also deep.
ひさぽん
濃かったね。 It was deep.
波照間島での体験
かなえ
面白かったね。 It was interesting.
ひさぽん
良かったね。まず建物手作り。 It was good. First of all, the building was hand-made.
建物手作りでね、お父さんが何年かかってて。 It was hand-made, and my father spent many years on it.
10年、改築、増築して3年とかいろいろかけて作ったっていうね、すごい立派な。 He spent 10 years on the renovation and 3 years on the expansion.
かなえ
凄い立派な。 He was a great person.
民宿あがた村っていうところにお世話になってるんですけど。 He was in charge of the village of Agata.
またご主人がなかなかね、すごい経験の持ち主でね。 And my husband had a lot of experience.
ひさぽん
凄い人だったね。 He was a great person.
なんかね、もう本当、果てる間で、一番って言ったら分かんないけど、果てる間のことというか、この八重山周辺のことについてあまりにも詳しすぎるので。 I don't know if I can say this, but I don't know much about the area around Yayama.
文化財か何かの、兵士隊か何かの係、役員か何かもされてるって言ってましたね。 I heard that he was in charge of cultural property or something.
ちょっと具体的な名前は忘れちゃったんだけど。 I forgot the specific name.
なんかまあ、公民館じゃないけど、そういうのの係みたいなやつとか、八重山みたいなのやってたりとか。 He was in charge of cultural property or something like that.
あとそもそも民宿の名前が、アガタ村? And the name of the village was Agata Village?
そう、果てる間開拓の時の村の一つで、その末永と仰ってましたね。 Yes, it was one of the villages at the time of the opening of Hateruma.
だから本当に開拓時代に来たっていうことなんだよね。 So it was really during the opening of Hateruma.
500年前に、このアガタ村のご主人のご先祖様が、500年前におそらく中国の辺りから渡って来たんじゃないのかなーなんて言ってましたね。 500 years ago, the ancestor of Agata Village, 500 years ago, I think he came from around China.
で、渡って来て、果てる間を、最初に開拓した人の末永だそうなので、おそらく詳しいわと。 So he came and opened Hateruma. He was the first person to open Hateruma, so he probably knew a lot about it.
かなえ
なんか資料館にしかないような本とか置いてあったよね。 Yeah, there were books that only existed in the museum.
ひさぽん
竹富町の長子のハテルマ島編っていうのが、クソが厚い。辞書みたいなやつですね。 There was a book called Hateruma Island in Taketomi Town. It was really thick. It was like a dictionary.
それもだって資料をいくつか提出したとか言ってたからさ。 Yeah, there were some documents that were submitted.
そう、出した側ですよ。裏付けを出した側ですからね。 That's right. He was the one who submitted the documents.
で、すごいやっぱり、ハテルマで農業を。農業というか自分たちでね、ハテルマで農業をやられてて。 So he did a lot of farm work in Hateruma. He did farm work in Hateruma.
トウキビ以外の農業をたくさんやられてて、どうしたらうまく育つかっていうところを研究というかチャレンジされてる方で。 He was doing a lot of farm work in the area other than the Tohkibi. He was doing a lot of farm work in the area other than the Tohkibi.
お野菜めっちゃ美味しかったよね。 Yeah, the vegetables were really good.
農業と観光
ひさぽん
美味しかったねぇ。 Yeah, they were.
かなえ
そう、ハテルマはね、黒糖がなんで美味しいかとか、いろいろ質問させてもらったんだけど。 So, I asked him why brown sugar was delicious in Hateruma.
When the south wind blows, the salt wind hits...
ひさぽん
Oh, let me explain.
かなえ
Wait a minute.
When the salt wind blows, minerals fall into the main land.
ひさぽん
I do it mostly.
The southern coast of Hateruma is famous for Takanazaki.
It's a cliff.
Black salt comes from the south from the Philippines.
The salt wind from the Philippines and the sea hit and made a cliff.
When the salt wind blows, the salt wind hits the main land of Hateruma.
Minerals from the sea fall into the main land little by little.
It's a land suitable for the cultivation of sugarcane.
The main land is very good.
That's why the sugarcane grew well.
かなえ
We heard a lot of interesting stories.
ひさぽん
Yes, it was very interesting.
We talked about a lot of things because we ate dinner together.
I learned a lot about how to make the most of nature and how to make the most of it.
If you're in the city, you're going to spend a lot of money.
You don't have to spend money to do anything.
You have to think about how to do it yourself.
I learned a lot about the city.
かなえ
I learned a lot about the city.
There is a sign that says Taiken no Yado.
If you have something you want to do, please let us know.
ひさぽん
He said he loves fishing.
He said he'd teach me how to make a fishing tackle.
If you make a request, he'll do whatever you want.
If you want to go to the field or go fishing, please let us know.
かなえ
There was a person, so I'll stop it.
There was a person, so I'll continue.
ひさぽん
My husband has another powerful point.
He used to run triathlons.
He used to ride a bicycle and run triathlons.
He also participated in the marathon.
He lists the names of the tournaments all over Okinawa.
He lists the names of the tournaments all over Okinawa.
It's a tough sport, isn't it?
It's a tough sport, isn't it?
He tried to figure out what kind of nutrition he should take.
He's got a lot of food in his pocket.
かなえ
He's got a lot of food in his pocket.
He's got a lot of food in his pocket.
ひさぽん
What is it called?
Vegetables, algae, grass, etc.
He also said that it was not necessary to take all the vegetables.
He also said that it was not necessary to take all the vegetables.
It's important to eat all the parts of the vegetables.
Eat the roots, stems, leaves, seeds, and flowers of the vegetables.
It's important to eat all of them in one meal.
かなえ
And the salt, too.
It looks like they boiled the seawater and made it.
ひさぽん
Seawater...
かなえ
What was it?
ひさぽん
Salt water, sea salt water, or seawater salt.
かなえ
It's like a spray.
I put it on fried eggs and ate it, and it was good.
ひさぽん
It's just salt. Liquid salt.
It's got seawater minerals in it, so it's already seasoned enough.
I don't need anything else.
If it's commercial salt, it's a little...
If you put too much on it, it'll be spicy.
There's no such thing as that. It's a very smooth taste.
かなえ
It's a salt that doesn't feel ordinary.
ひさぽん
That's how it got connected to Ishigaki Island's Parlor Papaya.
When I was listening to the story, the salt minerals were...
It's not good for your body to take too much salt water, but it's NACL.
It's not salt, it's NACL.
I've heard of it before, but I thought it was different.
かなえ
I was listening to a story about an Ishigaki Island master.
I asked, Are you Mr. Parlor Papaya?
ひさぽん
He said, Yes, yes, yes, Mr. Papaya.
かなえ
It's connected here.
ひさぽん
I looked at the bottle on the right side of the table.
There was a bottle called Yonehara Seawater.
Oh, this is it!
That's right.
かなえ
We didn't know anything. We just went to drink juice.
He taught me a lot of things while I was living in the desert.
ひさぽん
I didn't expect him to be my teacher.
He was the one who taught me how to make seawater.
Not seawater, but how to make salt.
He was the one who taught me how to make seawater salt.
かなえ
That's an interesting connection.
ひさぽん
Yeah, it was interesting.
In the end, he said that there is something he can do to improve on.
In the end, he said that there is something he can do to improve on.
So he was trying to improve on it and make something better.
He said it was a way of improving himself.
He didn't just imitate.
That kind of story.
かなえ
He said he was in his sixties, but he was full of vitality.
ひさぽん
Did he say he was 68?
It's about the same as my dad's, but it's completely different, isn't it?
かなえ
Somehow, it was really lively, and even when he was talking, he looked like he was having a lot of fun talking, didn't he?
ひさぽん
I can't believe he's in his late 40s.
It was like, is he in his 40s?
かなえ
It's like he's not interested in anything.
I guess he's trying to do it in his own way.
ひさぽん
Yeah, he said, it's a problem.
If you do something you're interested in, you'll find more and more things you're interested in.
There's no end to it.
かなえ
I thought it was great.
It was exciting to talk to him.
ひさぽん
It was a lot of fun.
It was really fun.
波照間島の地元文化
かなえ
When we came to Hateruma, of course, we went to the famous beach and the southernmost point.
I came here because I wanted to go there.
But more than that, I thought it would be really interesting to learn about the history and culture of the land.
I learned exactly what I wanted to know.
ひさぽん
So I thought it was really interesting to stay at a homestay.
It was a homestay or a folk school.
かなえ
When you stay at a guest house, you don't really get to interact with the locals.
ひさぽん
That's right.
かなえ
You get to get along with the people you meet at the homestay, but you still meet tourists.
ひさぽん
You get to get useful travel information.
But you don't get to get local information.
かなえ
Of course, it's a lot of fun.
It's a lot of fun.
It's a lot of fun to make more friends.
I felt like this was unique to my hometown.
ひさぽん
That's right.
It was really good.
It was really good.
It was a good homestay.
観光と訪問計画
ひさぽん
When we come back next time, we won't be able to see the southernmost point.
It's a shame.
It was sunny, but we couldn't see it.
I think it's best to see it in March, April, or May.
I heard it's best to see it in June, but it's best to see it in the afternoon.
I think it's best to see it in April or May.
If you want to increase the probability, Golden Week is expensive.
I think it's best to see it before the sunset.
It's possible to see it after March.
かなえ
I'd like to see it before Saturday.
It's convenient.
ひさぽん
It's a good place to see it.
I don't know anything about it.
かなえ
It's a place where you can do nothing.
ひさぽん
I thought it was really great.
I'm looking at the blue sea.
It's open to the west.
I'm talking to you while looking at Taiwan in the distance.
かなえ
It's the wind from the east today.
It's all blocked up.
ひさぽん
It's the west.
I can't get a single millimeter of the wind.
It's cloudy, but it's warm.
That's about it.
We have two hours left.
かなえ
I'd like to enjoy about an hour and a half.
See you next time.
ひさぽん
See you next time.
I'm going back to Ishigaki tomorrow.
かなえ
Good evening.
ひさぽん
Good evening.
Good evening.
かなえ
I'm going home.
ひさぽん
Good evening.
かなえ
Yes.