#17 【ゲスト:名桜大学准教授 Madoka Hammine】How to Preserve Ryukyuan Language

00:01

What's up, amazing people! This is IYASASA RADIO by Akane and Minami.

In this radio, we are going to talk about random topics in Okinawan, Japanese and English.

Hello, this is IYASASA RADIO by Akane and Minami.

In this radio, we are going to talk about random topics in Okinawan, Japanese and English.

Let me tell you her bio just a little bit.

She was born in Yonabaru and she grew up in Yonabaru.

She went to International Christian University in Tokyo for the bachelor degree.

She moved to Scotland for master's degree in University of Edinburgh.

After that, she moved to Finland for the PhD at University of Lapland.

Now, she is teaching English in Meio University in Okinawa and also studying Ryukyuan language.

In Japanese, she is Madoka Hammine from Yonabaru.

She went to International Christian University for the bachelor degree.

After that, she moved to Scotland for master's degree in University of Edinburgh.

After that, she moved to Finland for PhD at University of Lapland.

Now, she is studying Ryukyuan language.

She is also doing YouTube and radio.

Why did YASASA RADIO invite Madoka Hammine as a guest?

We usually don't talk about Okinawan language after the opening.

So, we wanted to hear the opinions of people who are studying Okinawan language.

That's why we invited her.

I think there are not many opportunities to hear about Okinawan language from professionals.

03:04

So, I was looking forward to meeting her today.

I want to ask Madoka-san.

Why did you start studying Ryukyuan language?

Should I speak in English?

It's a long story if I want to speak.

Why I decided to study Ryukyuan.

Initially, I wanted to become an English teacher.

I studied applied linguistics.

Then, I also studied social linguistics in Scotland and in Finland.

In both countries, I realized that they are minoritized languages.

In Scotland, there is a language called Gaelic.

In Finland, there are Sami languages.

But, in Europe, people see me as Asian and Japanese.

Some people ask me, are you really Japanese?

I don't know. Maybe because of the behavior or the looks I have.

I say, I'm from Okinawa.

It's a small island, but it's also Japan.

You need to explain.

I always say that when I was in America.

During this experience, I learned that in Okinawa, we also have minoritized languages.

Which I didn't know when I was growing up.

I got very curious why I didn't know so much about my own home and languages that people are speaking.

That's why I got interested in learning Ryukyuan languages.

Are they called minoritized languages?

Yes.

In Japanese, they are called minority languages.

Yes, they are called minority languages.

In English, they are called minority languages.

Why are they called minoritized languages?

Minoritized languages are called minority languages because there are many languages.

06:05

In Japanese society, they are called minoritized languages.

So recently, there are people who use the word minoritized in their research.

I also like that way of saying it.

I see.

Yes.

I see.

When I went abroad, I saw that people there speak about their own country and languages.

I realized that I didn't know much about Japan.

I knew about Okinawa, but I didn't know much about Japan.

I'm from Okinawa.

I really don't speak Okinawan language, but I know a little bit.

I experienced that, so I sympathized a lot.

Yes.

When I went to Scotland and Finland,

I met teachers and other people who were studying minority languages in bilingual education.

I was embarrassed that I couldn't speak the language I was born and raised on the island.

Yes.

I felt proud that people there spoke Okinawan fluently.

When I was in Tokyo, people in Okinawa spoke to me in a strange way.

I couldn't understand what they were trying to say.

I think it was because of my mistake.

I realized that I was there.

I understand.

Me and Akane were in Tokyo and we experienced the same thing.

According to what you said,

our generation speaks Okinawan Japanese.

Yes.

There is a concept called Uchina Yamatoguchi.

Yes.

I didn't know that.

We learned that word today from her.

09:00

I thought there was only Yamatoguchi or Uchinawaguchi.

But it was a mix of the words we naturally spoke.

It has a name.

We are a native speaker of Uchina Yamatoguchi.

Yes.

That's great.

When I hear that, I feel good.

Yes.

When I do research on hearing and sign language,

I find that the words our generation speaks are incomprehensible.

Yes.

It feels like it's not a proper language.

It's not like that.

It's one language.

You don't have to feel embarrassed about it.

That's a new idea.

Yes.

It came up.

What is the main language between Finland and Scotland?

Scotland is English.

It's similar to Okinawa in terms of history.

There was a period of rule from England.

There was a history in education not to speak Gaelic.

There was a period of rule not to wear traditional Scottish clothes.

So it's similar to Okinawa.

Ryukyu... Ryukyufuda?

What was it?

Hougenfuda.

It's like Hougenfuda.

Yes.

It's like Hougenfuda.

Finland is a school language.

There are two Swedish languages.

Swedish and Finnish.

Sami is spoken in the north.

It's spoken in Russia, Finland, Sweden and Norway.

Yes.

Sami is a language that was not spoken in official situations.

Finland and...

What was the other one?

Scotland.

Finland and Scotland both studied languages.

Did you ask why they chose Scotland?

No.

The reason why they chose Scotland?

Yes.

12:08

Finland and Edinburgh?

Yes.

Did you study special languages in Finland?

Is it like a developed country?

It's not a developed country.

Europe has the EU.

What's different from Japan is that it's an organization that goes beyond the country.

Yes.

European Union?

There is the EU and the European Union.

For example, in the EU, there is a law on the verification of minority languages.

In Sami, the law is based on such verification.

I don't know if it's a developed country, but I think there is a difference.

How is it different?

Finnish education to teach minority languages?

Is there any good example?

In Finland?

Yes.

In Finland, they have a system for people like us who don't speak endangered minority languages.

They can stop working and they can go to school for one year to study Sami.

Wow.

Yes.

You can speak Sami very well.

There is a system called Sami school in Lapland.

There is a program for young people who want to become adults and learn.

Are there many people who do that?

There were many.

Wow.

Is it guaranteed for one year?

Yes.

I think Finland has a system for people like us who want to become adults and learn.

There are many people who come back to university or school after working.

That's the characteristic of Finland.

I see.

The government guarantees it.

That's the difference.

I would take that class.

Yes.

The government guarantees it.

That's true.

15:05

I see.

Do you have a program for people who come back to Okinawa and teach minority languages?

Yes.

We have a program called Master Apprentice.

Master Apprentice.

Yes.

How is it?

Is it like an internship?

This is a program developed by people who learn the minority languages of California.

Do you know what immersion is?

Immersion.

Yes.

Immersion is a program where people learn minority languages.

Yes.

There is a way to use only minority languages in class.

But in Okinawa, it is difficult to do it in school.

There are restrictions on the amount of students.

I see.

18:00

I see.

Huh?

You asaborbed it?

That instead means it's different for each region in which the grammar is found.

May I ask which expressions to use and from which of the idioms?

We need to determine how the grammar comes into being?

Right.

It's difficult for listeners to keep track of who the grammar comes from.

Right.

I think that's one reason.

I see.

Including similar idioms like the imagons and such.

Master-apprentice is not a one-of-a-kind model.

It's more like a conversation.

For example, if you want to make a textbook,

you might have to choose a standard one.

But Master-apprentice has a tool for that.

It's a way to learn a variety of languages

based on communication.

It's difficult because there is a time limit

and motivation of the participants.

If you don't want to do it, it won't continue.

It's not just about doing it once.

It's important to continue.

People who live with their grandparents

and people who want to be like them

know dialects better than I do.

In Okinawa, people who got Yankees

know dialects better than I do.

That's nice.

I think so, too.

Yankees have a strong land and identity.

21:03

That's why they know dialects better.

When I was a college student,

I was in a youth club.

I learned a lot of dialects there.

People from the same generation spoke

dialects that I had never heard of.

People from the same generation speak dialects

that I had never heard of.

That's right.

I think that's the key.

I think it's one way to do it in education.

For example, in Hawaii,

we decided to do one variety in education.

We used that one variety in education

to revive the Hawaiian language.

By doing that,

you might feel like

your own language is not your own language.

That's a very difficult part.

In Okinawa, there is a youth club.

I think young people should be able to use their dialects there.

I don't know.

If not, you can spend more time with people

from the same generation who speak the dialect.

That's right.

You can also go with friends who can speak the dialect.

I think if we've been listening to Okinawan dialect,

we can comprehend maybe 80%.

But when it comes to speaking it,

it's like, huh?

Do you understand?

We don't practice pronunciation at all.

I can understand a little bit,

but I don't understand when I'm told to speak.

You are amazing.

Yes, I am.

When we were abroad,

we thought it was cool to have our own language,

and we wanted to be able to speak it.

That's how we started.

Even if you go to Tokyo, it's completely different.

I thought that if Okinawan dialect could be spoken in a cool way,

24:00

more people would want to speak it.

I think that's the key.

There is such a research.

Cool is the key.

If you think about it,

you have to learn how to speak in a pure language.

It's hard because it's so far away.

I think cool is the key.

If it's cool, more people will speak it.

The preservation and inheritance of language

will no longer be just about language.

Everything is connected.

What Minami and Akane are doing is

creating something new.

I think it would be best if we could do that through language.

We need to be cool.

We are cool.

We are already, but with using Ryukyu language,

people think that they want to be like us.

They learn Ryukyu language even if they are not from Okinawa.

We talk about it.

We can make a rap song using Okinawan idioms.

When I recorded Oba,

I said,

I want to use this.

It doesn't have to have meaning.

If it sounds cool, why don't we use it as a sound?

Then people will think, what does it mean?

Then they get interested in the different language.

It's connected, right?

Yes.

I think music is really good.

When I was a kid, I was in an English class.

If I teach in words, I get bored.

I can't think of it.

But if I sing and dance,

I can talk about it even when I'm not there.

It's catchy,

and it's easy to listen to.

It's easy to learn.

I think so.

There was a Okinawa boom, right?

At the time of Chura-san.

Amuro and Actors.

What was their influence?

If it wasn't there,

27:02

how can I say?

Personally, I think Yoko Gushiken was the pioneer.

She graduated from university and went to Tokyo.

It was tough, but she did it.

It's not sensational.

From this generation.

But if you try to do this in your father's generation,

Okinawans don't follow the time,

and the language is different.

I think there was discrimination in Japan.

I think the power of entertainment is amazing.

It's not just about language.

That's right.

Even now,

when I go to Tokyo,

people say that my Japanese is strange.

Tell me about your experience.

I want to hear it.

When I joined the company,

after I graduated school,

we had to speak standard Japanese.

Because I was doing a wedding planner.

Oh, I see.

Because it was a customer service,

I had to speak standard Japanese.

I was confident that I could do business.

But the language was strange,

so I had to practice the language.

I had to speak in a low-pitched voice.

So I always felt like I was a latecomer.

I had to say my name.

I was told that my Japanese was strange.

So I thought,

Is this strange?

For them.

That's right.

But from the middle,

this is my personality.

This is my language.

That's what I felt.

Did you claim it?

No.

That's great.

I do research and do interviews.

When people tell me about my experience,

I have the same experience.

I feel sad.

That's right.

Now I'm an adult,

so I can speak standard Japanese.

But I can't speak it without a switch.

It's like acting.

Like an actress.

Yes.

With using standard language.

So I always feel strange.

If I don't say my name,

I feel cold.

I understand.

Even though my name is Minami.

If I say Minami,

I feel like a stranger.

I understand.

30:01

It's interesting.

If it's English and Japanese,

you don't feel the gap.

You feel like a complete stranger.

But Japanese is like

you can change a little bit.

It's like your personality is fixed.

That's what I feel.

That's what I feel when I hear it.

I can't say it in English.

I feel bad.

It's like a mix.

I think it's the same in Tokyo.

I think people from all over the world

think the same.

But,

there is Kansai dialect.

I think it's very important.

There is Keigo.

There are many famous people.

I think standard language and Kansai dialect are good.

I think it's recognized as something that exists.

If you want to improve Okinawa,

you can catch up with Kansai dialect.

That's true.

When I'm in Tokyo,

there are many people who speak Kansai dialect.

No matter how much I speak English,

it's Kansai dialect.

They don't fix it.

They have the Kansai blood.

People don't think they are incompetent.

They can't work.

But in Okinawa,

there is a bias.

I always think about Kansai dialect.

I think this is what I should aim for.

There was a time when Osaka was the capital of Japan.

Kyoto has a very high position.

I think that's why words are influenced by history.

I don't think Okinawans should go to Tokyo and fix it.

But that's how society works.

It's strange that we are allowed to do that.

Thank you for saying that.

I think we have advantages when we speak Okinawan language.

Because it's soft.

The sound of Okinawan language.

So you don't have to be kind.

You can think of me as a kind person.

There are many good people in Okinawa.

Compared to Kansai dialect.

33:00

Kansai dialect is kind, but sometimes I feel it's strong.

I feel it's strong.

Because the accent is strong,

I feel it's strong.

Even if they are not like me.

That's why we always have advantages.

But sometimes I'm angry, but I don't think I've ever been angry.

That's a misunderstanding.

I'm angry.

It's funny.

It's a good thing.

I understand.

I think it's the image of the language.

So you don't have to speak Japanese.

I don't have to speak Japanese?

Because we speak Okinawan.

There are minority groups in every society.

The advantage of that is that the minority has to be bilingual.

If you don't speak a language with power, you can't work in society.

Education is done in a majority language.

For example, in the research of bilingualism,

you have to speak both your mother's and father's language in the environment where you immigrated.

I think it's in that kind of situation.

It was the same in Okinawa.

Sometimes I feel like I'm multilingual.

Because I speak regular Japanese.

English.

Uchina Yamaguchi.

That's what Iyasasa Radio is.

That's right.

Since we started this podcast, we've been doing openings in Okinawa.

After that, we just speak whatever we want.

I didn't consider that how we speak is a dialect.

It's not a dialect.

I thought it was just a young person's way of speaking.

I thought I had to study more.

Madoka-san told us that it's called Uchina Yamaguchi.

Yeah.

Huh?

I was saved.

There's a saying called pidgin and creole.

36:05

For example, when a language with power comes from various countries,

it mixes with the local language and creates a new language.

Pidgin and creole.

That's what's going on in Okinawa.

Pidgin and creole?

Pidgin and creole.

It's a mixture of young people's words and dialects.

Like shiniyabai.

Yeah, shiniyabai.

I don't know.

There's a lot.

Like, let's go to the bathroom.

Let's go home first.

And, like, I'm tired of eating.

I'm tired of eating again.

That's Uchina Yamaguchi.

Oh, I see.

Interesting.

You say it a lot.

I don't say chimui.

You say chimui.

I say chimui.

I see, it's not a dialect.

It comes from chimugurisan.

Chimugurisan?

Chimugurisan means chimui.

It became pidgin.

It became chimui.

Interesting.

It's interesting.

But you only say ha in Okinawa, right?

Oh, really?

Do you know?

What people from the mainland say is ha.

It's like what the fuck.

But people in Okinawa say ha when they don't feel anything.

And some people in Tokyo say ha when they don't feel anything.

I've heard that.

I don't mean it like that.

But they say ha a lot.

But they also say ha in English.

When I first heard ha in English, I thought they were angry.

On the contrary?

On the contrary.

I thought so, so I said it too.

It's ha in H-U-H, right?

Sometimes Americans say ha, too.

I know.

Like, I'm sorry.

But when I get used to it, I say it, too.

Interesting.

Good, good.

Can I go back to the story?

Yes.

What kind of people are learning their language?

Good question.

I don't know why, but what kind of people are learning their language?

Cool?

Yes.

I don't know why, but what kind of people are learning their language?

39:28

Cool.

We should promote Okinawan language, rap, right?

I want to promote rap that speaks Okinawan dialect.

With rap?

Yes.

Music is good, isn't it?

Yes.

It's really good.

It has to be cool.

Yes.

It has to be cool.

Yes.

It has to be cool.

Yes.

People who like Hawaii put the name of Hawaii on their children's names, right?

Yes.

I wonder if that is also influenced.

Certainly.

The brand power of the land is important.

Yes.

I want to ask you.

I heard that you said that Okinawan dialect is related to various things, not just language.

What are those things related to?

What did you feel?

I want to ask everyone.

Then I'll ask the question.

What was the question?

The dialect is not just a language, but it's connected to a lot of things.

So the dialect is the language itself?

Yes.

I feel like the language is connected to a lot of things.

When I first started speaking in Yaimamuni,

42:08

I made a lot of mistakes, and people would ask me why I was speaking in Yaimamuni all of a sudden.

Even now, people still treat me like that sometimes.

But...

You can do it?

But...

My grandmother is already 98 years old.

She told me that one day, when I was speaking in Yaimamuni, there was a Sumamuni competition.

What is Meiramuni?

Meiramuni is the word for Miyara in Ishigaki, Yaimamuni.

The word for Miyara is Meiramuni.

One day, I started speaking in Yaimamuni.

You got used to it?

Yes.

I think there was a moment when I got used to it.

Are you becoming a native of Meiramuni?

I don't think I'm a native, but I do radio and study groups.

There are a lot of towns, but I still speak in Meiramuni.

That's how we do mixing Japanese and English.

When you study English, it's also true, right?

You have to make a lot of mistakes, and that's why you learn a new language.

And I am aware that I make a mistake every time, but I don't care.

As long as it's transmitted.

I think it's the same as that.

I see.

What kind of people do you study with in Meiramuni?

I might be listening.

Listening.

It's real.

But when you learn a new language, we do the same method, right?

Even English, dialect, anything.

We have more and more resources now.

I think I can do it if I want to do it myself.

For example, there are a lot of varieties that don't have a lot of resources,

so I think it's better to do it in a way like Master Apprentice.

I don't have many participants.

45:02

Do you know other different dialects from Meiramuni?

Yes, a little bit.

I also study with my family.

I see.

I know that Miyako has a strong accent and unique words,

but is there a difference in sweetness in different places?

Yes, there is.

I see.

For example?

For example, in Iwayama, if you go to taketomi, there is a sound that touches your nose.

I see.

Yes.

Do you use the word biyon in Japanese?

I think so.

What is biyon?

The sound that touches the nose.

Is there such a pronunciation?

No.

The sound that touches the nose is called biyon?

I often use the word biyon that sounds like the sound of the nose.

I see.

It's a dialect called biyon.

Biyon.

Yes.

Also, there is the sound of a crack.

Pa.

Yes, yes.

Pa?

Yes.

Who?

For example, in the words of Kohama, there are a lot of sounds like pa.

For example, what kind of words are there?

Like, pana.

Pana.

I see.

I don't know.

I often hear that people from Kohama have that kind of influence when they speak Japanese.

So, I think, oh, this person is from Kohama.

I understand that.

Wow.

I understand that.

It's fun.

That's what's fun.

The answer is...

That's true.

When I was studying English, I was like, oh, this person is from the south.

And people from New York are fast.

I think it's the same as the feeling of understanding.

It's the same.

The real middle, south, and north are a bit...

So different.

Yeah.

Even between us.

Where are you two from?

Yonabaru.

I'm from Yonabaru, Minami.

I'm from Gino.

It's totally different, right?

Yeah.

I realized that it's really different after I became a university student.

Yeah.

I think people from the middle often use dialects.

Like Okinawa.

Yeah.

Like, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

That's no good.

But I think people from the south use it, too.

Maybe.

When I talk to my friends from elementary school,

48:01

or junior high,

I can tell that my intonation and accent are getting stronger.

It's a bit rough.

Yeah.

But as you get older,

you tend to use softer dialects.

Yeah.

That's what I feel.

That's true.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

When I talk to Akane,

I feel like I'm speaking in a loose way.

A loose way of speaking.

Yeah.

I see.

You're using different dialects.

Yeah.

So, for example,

when I talk to my colleagues from Tokyo,

it changes suddenly.

Yeah.

But when I was in Okinawa for a few weeks,

when I came back,

there were times when I tried to speak in the southern dialect.

Yeah.

I thought it was bad.

Yeah.

Sometimes I can't do it unconsciously.

Yeah.

It's an immersion.

Yeah.

When I came back from Yamato-buchi,

I was like,

what?

That's what I thought.

Yeah.

It usually changes.

Yeah.

Maybe,

in terms of language revitalization,

I think young people are the key.

I don't know what to do.

I don't know either.

We should make music.

Yeah.

I think it's branding.

Yeah.

Spreading it.

Also,

creating a system for those who want to do it.

Yeah.

51:00

Yeah.

So today we talk with Madoka-san,...

Yeah.

...and ask about the Ryukyuan languages and then other minoritized languages in Finland and Scotland...

Yeah.

...and how people learn their own languages.

languages, then we think we shouldn't be ashamed of our language, like Uchina, Yamato,

Guchi.

もう、なんか、流行方言が正しいもの、標準語が正しいものとかじゃなくて、

カルチャーの中で標準語とか今時の言葉と方言が混じった言葉を自然と自分たち

話してて、それがウチナ、ヤマト、グチって呼ばれてるし、それはもう、

それの自分たちはネイティブスピーカーだから、それもそれでオッケーっていう考え方は

今日初めて知った。

そうなの?

うん、知った。初めて知った。

し、だからそれも進めるし、

Also, we want to learn the original one, too.

54:03

だから、なんか、そういう情報とかも今喋れる人たちがいるうちに

一緒に方言を習ったりとかもしたいと思った。

なんか、コミュニティが必要かもね。

新しく学びたいって思ってスタートするんだったら、

横の繋がり、一緒に話せる場所みたいなのをやりたいなと思ってやってます。

確かに。

なんか、このイモージョンっていう手法も初めて知ったし、

なんかその喋れる環境を作って、

もう方言しかこの時間喋れません、みたいな。

でもそれは英語でも標準語でも一緒だと思うんだけど、

環境によって違うからその環境を作るっていうのは、

I think the best way to learn new languages.

And like you said, everything is connected.

Yeah.

Regardless language, how you look or how you eat, I don't know.

だけどなんか言語もその人そのもの、その人たるやを表す表現方法だと思うわけ。

誰でも、ほぼ誰でもできる方法ね。

Yeah.

なんか踊ったり歌ったりしなくても。

だからなんか、アカネだったら今まで育ったギノアンとか、

いたニューヨークとか、会ってきた人たちの影響を受けて、

最終形態が今日じゃん。

南もちょっと違う育ち方してるから、

全く同じ言語っていうか、喋り方って存在しないと思うわけ。

別に方言、何語とか関係なく。

とかなんか、内地から来た人とかいるじゃん、沖縄にも。

彼らってなんかたまにナマったり、たまに標準語みたいな。

なんかそれで、例えばナイチャーみたいな、

なんかこのレーベルがおはるんじゃなくて、

なんかみんなミックスで、みんなJust the way you areみたいな。

なんかこれは、なんか言語じゃなくて、

いまいろいろなマイノリタイズ、

SomeoneとかSomethingっていっぱいあるから、

結局みんなバラバラだし、みんなバラバラでみんな一緒って感じ。

確かに。

何でもいい。

うん、思う。

私なんか、何かを、

If we make something really cool,

then people wanna imitate and they want to, you know, try something same thing.

だから、なんか私たちはこの内の大和口とか琉球方言をやっぱり残したいって思うし、

なんかイヤササラリーディオでも内の大和口に関するクールなものを作って発信したいと思った。

思った。

で、方言歌っている人たちとか、

なんかそういう商品を作っている人たちとかも、

57:02

Go for itって感じ。

そうだね。

Because we are cool.

ということでした。

はい。

Thank you Madoka-san for coming today.

We enjoyed the conversation about the琉球語。

で、またなんかいろいろやりましょう。

はい。

She also do アプレンティスを募集中?

募集中。

1月にまたワークショップもあるので。

じゃあ、興味ある人は是非。

Check our Instagram and her podcast and YouTube.

はい。

はい。です。That's all for today.

Yay.

Bye.

Bye bye.

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