沖縄のアイデンティティの探求
沖縄の人ってさ、めっちゃ血縁関係さ、大事にしない?
Blood is important, but more important is ぶつだん。
男はもちろんだって、日本中も天皇もそうだけど、男が大事だから。
男であり長男が大事っていう国だからさ。
I went to ウカミンチュ。
She said it's okay. 基本的に時代が変わってるから。
The generation, time is changing, so it's okay.
ウカミンチュとかユータ、みんな現代の時代に
アダプティブにならないといけないと思う。
でもそのジェネレーションでやり方は変わるんだろうけど。
でも正しいフェイスを作るのは家族のみんなでいいと思う。
ウチナンチュは世界中である。
I think it's almost impossible to prepare everything.
You need to put the dough.
Have you put it in the U.S.?
持っていくってことでしょ。
打ち上げ紙にしたらダメでしょ、絶対。
沖縄そばの麺を日本そばに変えるくらい違うんだけど。
重箱の中身とかも。
重箱の中にいきなりパスタとか入れておかしいでしょ。
チキンとかステーキとか。
英体育養を批判するわけではないんだけど、
それをするくらいだったらアメリカに持っていくという精神性は。
でもさ、
In that case, when you die, you will be in the digital world.
Yes.
You do like many Okinawan things,
like you are, you become a...
言葉...
間違えた。
イタリバ町で。
イタリバ町で、
Podcast,
and you do hajichi and like many things,
but when did you like start, you know, doing,
actually doing Okinawan stuff,
like activity of Okinawa?
Yeah,
I started doing Okinawan stuff when I was 10 years old.
When you were 10 years old?
Yeah,
I started doing Okinawan stuff when I was 10 years old.
Okinawan stuff.
Like activity of Okinawa.
I mean, you grew up with it, but
Right.
When we were young,
we didn't like represent as an Okinawan so much
because it's normal for us,
but how about you?
Like, when did you like actually start doing like this stuff?
Yeah,
in pandemic time,
everybody was kind of inside.
And then right at that same time,
the Black Lives Matter movement was happening.
And I was very much in solidarity.
I was like trying to,
like, there was like the,
there was something about that movement
that sparked something in me around my own identity.
I'm like,
oh, like,
and I know that Okinawan is different than Japanese.
And then the more that I dug,
the more I was like,
oh, wow,
like, it's very different.
And then there was this online community
that I found called like the Shumanshu,
or I think it's like the Discord.
There's a Discord channel.
And then in there,
there's like a huge number of people
that are talking about what it means to be Okinawan
from all over, you know,
from like the United States,
from Brazil,
from Peru,
and like, you know,
just talking about things like,
you know,
food or clothes or spirituality or,
and like,
where in Okinawa are you from?
Like, where in the islands of the Ryukyus are you from?
And then just from there,
I just kept following the thread.
Like, it just one thing led to the next.
And for me,
I'm always following what feels right.
It's like this,
I don't know.
It's like, I know like,
this is the right path.
And then,
so I got interested.
So the podcast started from that Discord group.
I met Tori and Erika,
and we had never met in person ever.
So we had like,
we had this really awkward Zoom call,
where nobody got on video.
And we were just kind of like talking.
And you're like,
oh, like we want to start a podcast.
And then we became friends.
And then it kind of got bigger and bigger from there.
And then we had a lot of fun,
and people received it really well.
Because I think at that time,
there wasn't a lot of representation
of what it means to be Okinawan,
outside of Okinawa.
And so because there's so much diaspora,
people were hungry.
They wanted to know more.
And so like,
as we were doing,
we're like,
oh, actually,
we need to be doing more.
And then from there,
I learned about the Kenjinkai.
I didn't know about Kenjinkai at all.
Because Vermont,
no Okinawans.
Why would we have Kenjinkai?
Closest Kenjinkai is New York.
And so I was like,
wrote an email to the New York Kenjinkai.
I was like,
please like,
let me become a member.
I heard there's this Kempe scholarship program.
I would like to do it.
I was too old to participate in it,
but I got involved in the Kenjinkai from that time.
And then the pandemic times,
it was really hard.
Because like it was mostly run,
the Kenjinkai was run by older folks.
So they weren't particularly good at computers
or SNS or social media or anything like that.
And so there was like nothing happening.
And then after pandemic happened,
or reopened again,
like it was a slow build.
オキナワとのつながり
And so maybe like a year or two ago,
I was asked to be involved in helping to plan,
even though I'm in Vermont,
which is six hours away from New York,
like started to help the Kenjinkai.
And then this past year was invited
to be on their leadership as Fukukaijo.
Yeah.
And so it's just like,
it just happened naturally, organically, I think.
Like I wasn't planning on any of this.
It just happened.
Yeah.
Then connection is so strong.
Yeah.
Like she said,
they are more hungry to, you know,
dig in like Okinawan connection.
Yeah.
They want more connection with people.
I think that's about it.
You know, connect each other.
When I meet people from Okinawa,
I feel peace.
Yeah, I get it.
They are closer than the mainland Japanese.
Yeah.
It's more like a family vibes.
Yeah.
You're like, oh, you're safe.
You know, like,
yeah, this is safe place.
Yeah.
You're like, oh, come to my house.
Like, we'll make sure you're okay.
It's like a little family.
Yeah.
That's true.
I think it's true.
I get it.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That's cool.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I've never been in a group.
Like, naturally gather together.
Natural Kenjin-kai, right?
Yeah.
Gathering Kenjin-kai.
You know each other.
You don't have any name, but...
You know each other.
We go to Izakaya.
Yeah.
But, you know, in general,
Okinawan people like to gathering together.
So, it's not really a Kenjin-kai.
Yeah.
But, it happened to be a Kenjin-kai.
It happens a lot in Tokyo.
I see.
Like, Kenjin-kai.
If I say Kenjin-kai,
it's like a group of
nameless Okinawans.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like a gathering.
Yeah.
I think being far away too,
you want to connect more.
There's like a preciousness about it
because America is so diverse.
Like, when you find somebody
that has a similar experience,
you want to come and learn more.
And, what I've seen with the Kenjin-kai
is like generationally,
it's also very different.
So, like the Kenjin-kai
that existed for Issei people
was like very different than say now
where like there's people that are like
third, fourth, fifth generation
that are removed,
that don't speak Japanese,
like but are curious.
And, I also think that in diaspora,
like maybe there's a...
So, like I'm thinking about my mom.
She like left Okinawa.
I knew Okinawa was different,
but like she didn't really want to be
so involved.
But, I want to know,
like about me.
I'm curious.
But, she's like,
no, that's me.
Like, you don't need to talk about it
or learn it.
And so, I think there are a lot of people
like me who their parents
didn't teach them so much about Okinawa.
So, they go to Kenjin-kai to learn.
Makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But, that pattern is like
世代間の文化継承
there's something going on in her hometown
and she doesn't want to go back.
Something like that.
Maybe.
Yeah.
I think it's not uncommon
that people have things
that they have at home
that they don't want to talk about.
And, I think that's why
maybe my generation,
maybe younger generation
is curious.
It's like, oh,
other people don't like...
Elders don't want to talk about it,
whether it's related to the war
or like something with the war
happened,
but nobody's ready to talk about it yet.
But, like, we want answers.
And so, we ask each other
and then we find
or go to Okinawa
and then look at old photographs
or, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's human nature.
Yeah.
We want to know about
where I came from.
Yeah.
Where are the roots.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The blood.
I don't know.
I think it's my parents.
Yeah.
But there has to be a blood
connected by the biological.
Yeah.
Biological connection.
I think that's very Japanese.
Japanese.
Or, I think Okinawa has
the older culture.
Like, who's gonna
take over.
Butsudan.
Butsudan.
That kind of thing.
Yeah, yeah.
But, Okinawan people are more
accept about
adopting nephew.
They're connected by the blood.
Not the son.
But they're okay to adopt them
to take over the butsudan.
仏壇の変化と国際化
Blood important, but
more important is butsudan.
Yeah.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've heard of, so I know
somebody who's from Brazil.
A woman.
But her family in Brazil,
like the totome is an issue.
Their family doesn't really want
to do anything with it anymore.
She's like, I will take it.
In Brazil?
She's in the US now.
I don't want to tell too much of her story.
It's interesting to think about
somebody coming to Okinawa
with Brazil roots.
Having butsudan in the US?
It's possible.
It's possible.
You can do whatever you want.
Do it in the US?
Do it.
Sounds interesting.
I went to Kamichu
over this trip.
How was it?
It was great.
It was all in Japanese.
There were some parts I didn't understand.
But she said it's okay.
Generally speaking,
because the times have changed,
the generation, time is changing,
so it's okay.
She said that.
I was like, oh, I didn't think about it.
I mean, coming to Oita,
everyone has to be more
adapted in the modern era.
Like my dad,
he's very like a
traditional guy, seems like.
But he's really open
to me being gay,
and like women
doing like
men stuff.
He says like,
it can't be helped.
We're changing, so we can't stop it.
So we cannot
keep saying no to
accepting new stuff.
So I feel like
old people are also
changing for the sake of transparency.
In the end, it's just a group.
How do you connect?
So,
a lot of family does
give away Butsudan.
So I don't know about that.
It depends on the family,
but it's really changing.
Like how many siblings they have,
or how
the parents were.
I wonder
what the future of Okinawa looks like.
But if the Butsudan
goes international,
if the Butsudan goes overseas,
isn't that amazing? I've never seen that.
You just import it.
I mean, bring the stuff.
Bring the Uchikabi,
all like Senko,
and everything.
How much she does gonna do practice
depends on her, so I don't know.
And no one can say like
you, you know, doing it
wrong or anything.
Because that's what she does.
Butsudan, do you have the bones?
No.
Only Senko.
So,
the one with the name
on it,
and
the one in the middle
with the Senko.
If you have a set, you just
burn it.
Uchikabi, you just use the paper.
Burn it.
If you believe it, it's money.
Oh, that's interesting.
That's interesting.
I'm curious too.
Ok, let's go.
You can't use paper for Uchikabi.
That's all?
Yeah.
So, you just import Uchikabi?
You have to come to Okinawa
a few times a year and buy everything.
Why you don't accept is
me talking about Uchikabi
using paper alternative.
I couldn't allow it.
Really?
So, if you write
Uchikabi, you just burn the paper?
If you don't have it,
what do you do?
If you don't have it,
you can't do Butsudan.
Is it only Uchikabi?
Or you...
What other examples are there?
Senko.
If you don't have Senko,
what do you do?
No.
But, wait.
It's so refreshing that she's saying
like, you know,
against the traditional or something.
You know what I mean?
She's always like, I don't mind,
do it, whatever you want.
But in Korean, it's not Butsudan.
It's not a traditional practice.
Yeah.
I guess.
I think it's good to change
the atmosphere of the photo.
Yeah.
I don't think it's good
to change the tools of Butsudan.
What?
It's different.
You can do it in a park.
With branches and paper.
But there is Butsudan itself in the States.
International.
If they bring it back.
But it's different
to change the noodles of Okinawa soba
to Japanese soba.
I know, I know.
But there is Butsudan itself.
The real thing.
Oh, I got it.
You can bring back Okinawa soba
but you can't change the noodles
to Japanese soba.
Yeah.
It depends on the family
but the tools are the same.
Even the contents of the box.
Yeah.
It's weird to put pasta in the box.
Chicken or steak.
I know, I know.
You can't change the noodles.
Yeah.
If you want to bring Butsudan
to international.
You need to prepare
everything as it is.
Then it's not Butsudan anymore.
オキナワ文化とアイデンティティ
In my opinion.
It's so interesting that Akane is saying this.
I got the example of soba.
Yeah.
I think
maybe it's complicated too
because I'm a mixed person.
I'm mixed.
I guess the analogy that you made
of the bowl being Okinawan
but the soba is different.
That's me though.
I'm Okinawan and I'm also American.
Then the story
that I hear a lot is
people in Brazil
when they immigrated
they couldn't bring anything with them
but their heart and their prayers
to their ancestors back home was still the same.
So they
prayed the best way that they knew how
to honor their ancestors.
Maybe in the war
if they didn't have the things
does the prayer become any less
genuine?
Maybe there's this question of
what makes
it authentic? What makes it right?
I think for me
if your heart and your spirit is there
Uefa Fujii knows.
They understand.
In Vermont
there's no
I bring from Okinawa
Uchikami and Hirako
and do my prayers
but not every time
you can get them.
You can't buy it.
When I was talking to
they were like
just do what you can.
That's good.
If you have the option
of having the traditional things
I think that's great.
If you're in a position that
you're not able to get real things
then you need to find some
alternative things.
Going back to
how they dress
it's like what they believe.
They're wearing normal clothes
but
there are things they believe
to be authentic.
But they're wearing t-shirts and
denim so it's not real.
Is it the same as that?
It's similar.
But
the obon is genuine.
I don't know.
There's a difference.
I see my
parents, aunt
and everyone
try to follow the way it is.
They stick with it.
They can't miss anything.
Even they
don't know how
their dad or mom
does but
they read the book
and they tell
this is not the way it is
I can't do like this.
I can't break
that rule.
I get it.
You have a family rule.
On this day
even if I have work
I won't come.
It's interesting.
Now it's
not like as it is
but
it was like that.
Somebody needs to
know the
basic way too.
Like diaspora
people living overseas and
coming back here and maybe you can
show them
this is how we do it.
The order and the way.
That's very important.
Grandpa's
Buddha statue
in his house.
Grandpa died and
his mom's brother
and his grandson
his grandson
saw it.
He was so young
to take over
everything.
He has to learn
everything and he has to change
his job.
It was a lot of work.
He changed his job
so that he could take over.
He had to change his lifestyle.
A leader of
Uchinanchu at that time
will control
everything.
We can be this casual
maybe the next one
saying we should be like this
and that.
The way of doing it
will change with the generation.
But yeah, what makes
authentic faith
I think it's among the family
and that's fine.
Otherwise
Uchinanchu is all over
the world and I think it's
almost impossible to prepare
everything they need to
do.
If there is a Buddha in
other countries and they don't
have to go back to Okinawa for
Obon anymore.
That's true.
Usually people
come back because Obon is important.
Is there a possibility
that that kind of culture will
disappear?
They do Obon over there.
That family does
Obon over there.
That's the only way.
I think they have that
in Hawaii.
Obon is right now.
I think as long as they have
Munchu
not give away to
Mitakyo.
Mitakyo means
collective
tomb.
We finish
passing
Butsudan.
So that they can
visit there to pray.
It's not love
but collective.
I don't know how to call it properly.
But
I don't mean to
criticize A-League
but
if they do that,
they can bring it to America.
Their spirit is
amazing.
They are treated as
one thing.
They can give it up now.
I do a lot of
family fighting
issues everywhere.
So they want to stop it.
But they do give away
for good.
Butsudan?
What about Bone?
Bone?
They want to stop
Butsudan.
They want to stop A-League.
沖縄の葬儀と文化
If I'm wrong,
I'll say it.
It's hard.
Agane's family must be hard too.
They can't take care of it
so they want to go there
and pray.
I don't know what
equipment they have there.
Maybe they have
digital stuff.
They have a screen
on the painting.
It's so clean.
Like a hotel.
In that case,
when you die,
you will be in the digital world.
Yes.
Ask your
parents or
when you get older,
ask your daughter
not to do it.
It's not even a rare thing anymore
because it's too much work
to keep the tradition going.
I'm looking forward to
the future of Okinawa.
But
I think Butsudan
might change
and become
more robotic.
It might not have
a door anymore.
It might be all digital.
I don't know.
But I think
Mariko's friends
bring Butsudan
to overseas.
It's great.
If you think about the future,
taking care of the mind
is dangerous
if you don't spread it.
Right?
But the mind
needs to have
some kind of ritual
that impacts you to your mind.
The mind and the body
are the same.
I think it's important
that Akane
values traditional practice.
If there are more people
who don't care about it,
it's like
you're on your own way.
But if you go overseas,
you can't do it perfectly.
So you have to do it
in your own way.
If you have a chance,
come here.
But
there is a concept of
Eita-ku.
Eva, when you die,
how do you want it to be?
That's a huge question.
What do you mean?
You mean
what she believes
or what she's going to be
in a tomb.
I don't know yet.
Before, I thought that I wanted
to be cremated.
Then I found out that Okinawa
doesn't do cremation.
They have the problem too
in America.
Which grave are you going to?
Are you going to be buried with your partner?
How does that work?
I don't know.
I want to learn more about Okinawan burials.
I don't know if it's even right
for me to be in a family tomb here.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Especially,
you have a partner
and he's an American guy.
So,
you don't know
where he's going.
If you want to do it
in an Okinawan way,
he will come here
or
Mariko's family,
how they accept it.
Yeah.
So,
there are many options.
I'm curious what my mom
is going to do.
It depends on her.
She said she wants to be cremated
and maybe scattered different places.
She also
is obsessed with space.
I want to donate my body
to science or something.
I was like, please don't do that.
You don't know what's going to happen.
So, go the cremation option.
I think she still doesn't know
what she's going to do.
So, the Middleton family,
we have a plot.
So,
we don't know.
Maybe both.
Scattered.
Scattered.
It's interesting to ask
mixed kids.
How they want to be cremated.
I kind of just want
to go back to Shizen.
Yeah, like that
completion, like the circle of life
feels really important to me.
Yeah.
I don't know what will happen
if I die.
My mind will change before I die.
Do you understand?
We're not dying.
But if I was in that position,
I might change my mind
like, you know.
Like on your deathbed?
Do you have an idea now?
Depending on
how I want to be
when I die.
Yeah, I think so.
You want to think about it
and die, right?
I want to think about it and die,
but when I get to that point,
I have 100% no idea.
Yeah.
Because we're not dying.
You know some people dying once
and then came back.
Yeah, yeah.
They might see something.
Like the river of Sanzu.
But they don't have experience,
so even if they ask
I don't know.
So I'm sorry.
I just didn't know
what I was thinking
when I was dying.
It didn't have anything to do with Kuyo.
I want to live long.
I want to live long.
So Akane, you have to teach your kids
not to give away the Buddha.
Not to give away the Buddha.
But my husband's mom
said
you don't have to give away the Buddha.
Oh, really?
So I don't know
what to do.
But I think my husband
wants to take over.
He's very Okinawan.
Yeah, he likes tradition.
He likes tradition.
沖縄の伝統と家族
I don't know
what we're going to do yet.
But we need to talk about it.
I think if it's not going to
a family unit,
then it's going to be a bigger scale
of family or maybe.
I want my daughter
to experience
Okinawan tradition
including Butsudan stuff.
So I think it's good
to continue the Butsudan.
And
then she can
experience
Onbon and
everything like we did.
Maybe in the future we have
like a portable Butsudan.
It's cute.
I love that future.
I'm curious.
Oh my god, that was so interesting.
That was so interesting.
Akane was like...
Yeah, I was like...
That was so interesting.
Yeah, I couldn't believe it.
It was interesting and I was happy.
The spirit.
I can't give up that part.
Yeah.
It was weird.
Yeah, you know, if
this broadcast and
people start talking
about it,
their opinion, I think that's
the best goal to do it.
Because it's okay to have a different opinion
about the practice.
In our generation,
we still don't have to think about
Munchu.
Not yet.
So I think most of our
dokyus don't even think
about Butsudan.
Unless their parents die.
Yeah.
In the situation, they need to take over.
But maybe like
20, no
20, 30 years later,
we start
thinking about it.
Yeah.
It's gonna be
way, you know,
recent.
2030, our parents
gonna be like
old.
A lot of them will be passed away.
Our friends,
some of my friends already,
you know, parents passed away.
You give away?
No, no, no.
My mom
is a woman,
so she doesn't have Butsudan.
But your dad is not
chonan?
He's chonan, but it's complicated.
His younger brother
took over in Iejima.
未来の沖縄を考える
And he doesn't, you know,
do stuff.
Because of family
issue.
So we don't have
Butsudan.
We create a new Butsudan
as Kinjo family.
Ah, I see.
Okay.
That's a lot.
I'm curious what your future,
like what kind of Okinawa
do you envision? So like you have kids, right?
What kind of Okinawa do you imagine
they will be? Like say
your daughter, Tida,
is like your age.
What is she doing?
What kind of future? Like technology?
What does it mean to be Okinawan?
Okinawa will be like
Hawaii.
You mean economic, right?
Economic, yeah.
Will be more poor, right?
Many immigrants
right?
I don't know.
What do you want it to be like?
What do you want it to be like?
Protecting people and
not caring people.
Ah, traditional.
Like us, we love
Okinawa and we
like tradition and we
like culture. So those kind of people
do
Okinawan stuff.
I mean, as an
Okinawan with Okinawa pride.
But other people
other people
I don't know.
Will be not Okinawan
anymore.
They just born and grew up
in Okinawa but
they don't recognize them as Okinawan
anymore.
Because
I don't know. I can't imagine.
I think it
depends on how you envision
the future, how Japan
you know, accept
the immigrants or not
Japanese.
If something happen and if
it's difficult to live in Okinawa
anymore, I can
leave the island too.
You can't?
I cannot.
I am able
to
protect our
family.
I don't know
the war happen or
if something happen and it's
not good for my kids and
I can leave my, I mean I am able
to leave the island
to protect my family.
It's like
if it's like bad situation.
What important is to you
is living.
Living is the most important thing for me.
Connecting DNA.
DNA is the most
important for me.
I don't know what's going on
in Okinawa.
A lot of Okinawan
kids have no chance to
go out of Okinawa unless
they are
financially
well.
The family is so
like
if it's a poor family,
they don't have opportunity to go
outside and
don't know what Okinawa is.
It's too normal to live here and
they don't recognize
how the island is.
So
people who went outside
want to
make Okinawa like this
but
kids who are not like that
are desperate to
make Okinawa like this.
We have election
this weekend.
So
there is one
indicate to me
that what
子供の安全と教育
Japan should be
in the future is like
I want all the kids can go to school by themselves.
That's what I always
think.
Japanese kids can go to school by themselves.
It doesn't happen in the States.
They are gonna be kidnapped or anything
or get killed or something.
But Japan, kids can
walk around by themselves like
5 years old. It's so
special. I want to keep it.
So
I am thinking
about that.
I don't know about Okinawa
but
I don't want to keep
that policy.
If I can do it, I want to do it.
That's what I think.
I don't want to worry about that
as a parent.
I want to take the school bus everyday
and go to the front of the classroom
and take care of the kids.
I think
some places
it's different in the countryside.
But
kids in the base
can't walk around by themselves
and parents can't feel safe.
They know it's safe, so it's safe.
But
Japan's security
is super good.
So
if we keep it,
women and kids
have to be safe.
That's minimum.
I think that's
the core.
If something
breaks down,
there will be a lot of crimes.
Yeah.
You need to leave the country.
We can foresee
the future.
Educate
yourself.
Anyways, my mom has
customers soon.
Thank you
for coming again.
It was one of the
best
conversation we had.
Mariko.
Thank you.
