#247 スーパー学歴女子が乗り越えてきた壁と、今向き合うバリア【#科学系ポッドキャストの日】

今日は私の大事な友人で、大学院時代からの友達であるGloryに来てもらいました!! 数々の優秀な人に出会ってきたアサミ史上トップクラスで文武両道⚔️学歴🎓実績✒️すべてキッラキラなのに、謙虚で気さくでユーモア溢れる素敵な女性なのですが、最近テニュアトラックの教授になった彼女にアカデミアサバイバル術を聞いてきました! 長編エピソードですがよろしくお願いします!

🩰Gloryとアサミが知り合ったきっかけはバレエ

👩‍🎓Gloryの最初の大きなバリアは修士課程だった

👯修士課程で学んだ、周りの環境の重要性

🔎メンター役は複数の人に分散させよう

💪もしかしてバレエによって鍛えられた可能性ある？！

👶数々の壁を乗り越えたGloryが母になった今感じるバリア

🧱バリアはなくならない。でも...?

【#科学系ポッドキャストの日】

ほぼ月1でお送りする、複数の科学系ポッドキャストが共通のテーマを、それぞれの番組らしい視点から広げ、深掘りしていくこの企画。2026年2月はひよっこ研究者のさばいばる日記（⁠@hiyoken_⁠）のお二人から、テーマは【バリア】。2月と3月に渡って企画しているのでぜひお便り・座談会参加などお待ちしております！

🔥あなたのお焚き上げエピソードも募集中

→t.co/TY7MELhbXu

🟢Spotifyプレイリスト

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サマリー

このエピソードでは、テニュアトラック教授となったGlory氏をゲストに迎え、学術界における様々な「壁」について語り合います。Glory氏は、大学院時代の経験から、特に修士課程での経験が自身の学術的な道における最初の大きな障壁であったと振り返ります。当時は、自身の能力への疑問や周囲との比較から強い不安を感じていましたが、後に多くの同級生も同様の経験をしていたことを知り、自身の経験が特殊なものではなかったと気づきます。 さらに、Glory氏は、学術界における暗黙のルールや、自身のアイデンティティ（女性、アジア系アメリカ人）がキャリアに与える影響、そして近年では育児とキャリアの両立といった新たな壁に直面していることを明かします。特に、アカデミックなキャリアにおける「壁」は、個人の能力不足だけでなく、制度や文化に根差したものであることを強調します。バレエ経験から培われた粘り強さや、複数のメンターから学ぶことの重要性、そして自身の経験を活かして後進を指導する姿勢についても触れ、学術界の変革への希望を語っています。

科学系ポッドキャストの日とテーマ「バリア」の紹介

Hi everyone, it's Asami and you are listening to 英語でサイエンスしナイト.

で、今日はねちょっとスペシャルなエピソードがあるので、

あの説明を先にね本編の前にしようかなって思って話しています。

今月の科学系ポッドキャストの日に合わせて収録したエピソードがこれになるんですけれども、

あの、そもそも科学系ポッドキャストの日というのは、

毎月交代でホスト番組が共通テーマを設定して、それに合わせて参加番組がそれぞれの

その番組らしさを

最大限に生かした解釈で解釈して、それを同じ毎月そうですね

10日ぐらいにシェアして

同じ共通プレイリストを作って、いろんな人に聞いていただこうという企画なんですけれども、

2026年2月は

ヒヨッコ研究者のサバイバル日記のお二人による企画になっておりまして、

テーマがバリアです。

で、なぜそういうテーマになったかっていうと、2月は

International Women and Girls in STEM Month っていう月間になっておりまして、

やっぱりね、2026年になっても、女性や女の子が

科学を志すにあたって

向き合わなきゃいけない、立ち向かわなきゃいけない障壁っていうものは何か

あるので、それに向けて解像度を上げて、男性も女性も

それぞれの自分の体験だったりとかを

語ってもらって、やっぱりね、統計学的に見ると

それはそれでね、メタな視点が持てていいんですけれども

ポッドキャストの良さを生かすっていう意味でも、個人的な体験を

あくまで個人的なままシェアしようっていう

試みでございます。なので、私も

今日のエピソードでは、大学院時代の

友人を招いて

ちょっとね、

ステム分野ではないんですけれども、バリバリにアカデミアで頑張っている彼女と

一緒にお話をしてきました。

それはちょっと本編で聞いてみてください。

この企画は毎月いつもと同じようにプレイリストも出るので、そちらもリンクに貼っておくんですけれども

それ以外にも

ちょっと発展したイベントになっていまして、まず第一段階として2月

このテーマ、バリアーのテーマでいろんな参加番組に参加していただく

で、それを聞いていただいているリスナー様に

お便りとか

私はこういうことがありましたっていうのをシェアしてもらえたら嬉しいなっていうつもりで

やっているんですけれども

なぜかというと、翌月の3月に座談会を考えております

で、いろんなエピソードが集まった後、感想会を含めて

ホスト番組のヒヨケンさんと

私と35歳右左ナイちゃんですとか

ボイシーの方で活躍されているスイッチさんとか

にも参加していただいて、で、もちろん皆さんはウェルカムなので

ちょっと聞いてみたいなって方は

また日誌を公開するので、その時にジョインしてもらえたら嬉しいですし

いや、私も喋りたいっていう感じの方がいらっしゃいましたら、ぜひ

DMしてくだされば嬉しいなと思います

なので、2月の科学系ポッドキャスト、3月の座談会

2つ大きなイベントがありますので

You know, stay tuned and I'll make sure you knowabout it once the date and time is decided

So yeah, that's it for the PSA

and

without further ado

Let's go to the home pen

Glory氏の自己紹介と二人の出会い

Hello, Glory

Hi, Asami!

So as you can hear we have a guest today

Glory, why don't you introduce yourself a littlebit?

Hi everybody. My name is Glory Liu

I'm an assistant professor of political theory inthe department of government at GeorgetownUniversity

My background is in the history of politicalthought, intellectual history, political economy

Asami and I were postdocs together way back in theday

I was a grad student

Oh my gosh, you're right

I forgot

Asami was a graduate student

I was a freshly minted graduate student while Iwas doing my postdoc

and

Delighted to join you for this conversation

also

Avid contemporary ballet dancer and dear dearfriend who has commuted many miles with Asami totake ballet classes

Yes. I mean basically other than like being justoverall badass

slaying academic lady

Our friendship I think really developed in aballet studio

the commute on the way to ballet studio

1000%

We are ballet friends. We're two women in academic

I you know my impression of her when I first mether was like damn. She has long extensions

and

Not anymore

You know, it's really interesting because I neverreally had this like older sister figure type inlike my academic sphere

my

Background in physical chemistry at least in myprogram was heavily

White and male dominated. So

It was like really interesting to hear, you know,someone who's like a step ahead, you know

It's like she already has a PhD. She's doing apostdoc like that kind of thing

So I mean other than that though, but just reallyI think beyond that we've been good friends acrossthe oceans and

Time zone so it's been wonderful

but today I

学術界における「バリア」の経験：修士課程

wanted Glory to join us because

of this

科学系ポッドキャスト for the february month. So the themethis month is

障壁

or barrier in english

and

We are

You know getting I think maybe 20 or so differentpodcasts. It looks like all talking about barriersin different

Interpretation their own ways. We are here tothrow our two cents

about barrier so

the

moment we decided the theme to be barrier for thismonth like the first I was like

who do I want to talk about this with because

uh, it's a very sort of

sensitive area sometimes for some people and

I think it's not always easy even with your like

closest friends or family to talk about if theydon't understand this specific dynamic of being inacademia

and whatnot

and I think we both had a very unique pathwayslike Glory, you know, um as she talked about itearlier, uh

not strictly STEM per se but very, you know,similar academic

STEM adjacent?

Yeah, STEM adjacent. I think I mean it's I mean atthis point I think all of our subjects are kind of

interdisciplinary

anyway, and um

I married a physicist. She's she's married to aphysicist. She's very very familiar with uh

how STEM academia

dynamic works

I think we uh, it really recalled me to thisconversation. We had way back when uh, when I wasa grad student

And it was about time. I think 2020

When was it like 2020 around time like me toomovement was happening

and people were uh people, you know, even in theacademic world, you know, we're talking more vocally about

a woman's experience in

Growing up in and trying to pursue academicpathways, right?

and

I think it was right around that time. We startedto hear like some horror stories as a grad student

um that I was not aware of

um

and hearing all of these stories, I was just like

kind of shocked but also I

Didn't know how to relate because I didn'tnecessarily

experience that firsthand

um

and

I think I was kind of confused about how to bethere for my friends who did experience that

and but also try not to invalidate my ownexperience and I think

yeah, I think this was like an interesting kind of

angle to look at because

We both survived grad school

Somehow we made it without too much

scars should we say

and

It didn't deter us from pursuing the this careerthat we have today

um, yeah, so

Yeah, what was your experience like glory? Likewhat was your experience in your like undergradgrad school like

Yeah in general. Yeah

um, maybe i'll just preface all of this withsaying that

I have been extraordinarily lucky andextraordinarily privileged that I

Have been able to attend the institutions that i've attended. Um elite universities

In the u.s and abroad and now teaching at oneright that that in and of itself

Is an extremely unusual

um status and you know, I

Count my lucky stars every single day

All of that said I also recognize that on top ofjust the sheer advantages that i've had in myacademic career

um

Coming out unscathed as you said, right?

Having a good experience

Loving my education having fantastic mentorshaving advocates

and and frankly

not

um facing

real

kind of explicit barriers or explicitdiscrimination or harassment

um

That is an extreme privilege, right?

And and again, I just want to acknowledge that upfront that like that has been my overalltrajectory one of

privilege and and luck

um

but as you mentioned right like I think this um,because that is so out of sync with

Of the kind of aftermath of the me too movementwhich

Likewise I shared your like shocking horror andalso resignation

Because yeah, we all knew this was happening. Andagain, like asami you and I are both balletdancers

You and I are both ballet dancers. Like we knowhow awful

Ballet school can be a little too familiar withabusive

Abuse and how you can be complicit in it andaccept it because you just have accepted theinstitution

and the discipline and the training you're like

Oh, yeah, of course that happens. But that's justwhat you have to do to make it right

That's part of the package. Um, so I I just wantto say that kind of like

um

not as a by no means as a justification or as anexcuse, but but just to kind of

illustrate for our listeners that like of all thepeople who who could be as attuned to these kindsof

institutional dynamics you and I

Are among the most attuned to those things and yetwe still came out with an over well overwhelminglypositive experience

so yeah, I what I kind of want to say

yeah, what what I want to say is not like a kindof like

rose tinted view of like everything's great andlike you too can be the girl boss that you want tobe that is

that is not at all the message of thisconversation

so so that's just kind of my long disclaimer oflike

The the topic here that we're trying to grapplewith is like the brutal reality of extremelyexclusive institutions

Oh, yeah in in which the cards are stacked againstyou in so many ways

How is it that you manage to have

um

An overall positive experience like can you how doyou how do you make yourself?

Feel included and also how do you use your successto help others feel more included?

I think that's kind of what we want to talk about.Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

so exactly

I think just to kind of catch up the listeners,right?

Like I wanna like I we don't claim to have all theanswers. We don't like think that

I'm still navigating this right now

Right like and and you know, you'll hear from uslater down the road perhaps uh that you know

Just because it was like really fun and overallpositive in grad school

Doesn't mean that it was like all the same way inour like early career trajectory either

so

um, you know

This is just like just looking at sort of like thetraining period of becoming a researcher, right?

Like the undergrad the grad school that period how

uh, we managed to sort of survive and also

Is there anything we can kind of learn from andpass it down to the future generation now that we're in a position

to mentor younger people

um, you know what sort of things

what sort of dispositions

characteristics

factors helped us have

this relatively good experience

So this is more like investigation on our ownexperience from n equals 2 point of view

rather than like, you know

massive big claim that applies to every situationfar from it. Yeah

Okay disclaimer done. So how was it? So I think

one way that I can get into this is to talk about

um, or or

Share something that I share with

Current mentees and students that I've had who askme for advice. They say

Professor Lu, I want to go to grad school. I wantto do what you did. I want to do a master's degreein England

Um, I want to do this degree this degree and theneventually I want to do like a JD PhD or something

I did not do a JD PhD. I just did a PhD

underachiever

um

but you know and and students will ask like howwas your experience during grad school and

And reflecting on this kind of really uniqueperiod where I did a master's degree at theUniversity of Cambridge, you know

I said I had an incredible two years at Cambridge.I wouldn't have traded that experience foranything

That said I did not know what I was getting into

um, the cultural and institutional practices anddiscourse were not where they are today

I did not have the toolkit to understand what Iwas going through then that I now can look back onand see

I should not have had that kind of experience

and what I mean is that like

I had a really hard time my first year as a master's student because my mentality was just be thesmartest

work the hardest prove that you are among thesmartest and the best

and

But my emotional experience was you do not belonghere. You are dumb

Everybody else is extreme. I mean

Like I was in a cohort of like 24 studentsoverwhelmingly male. I think there were only fourwomen out of 24 students

um

I was like, you know, and and I went to like avery prestigious public school

But all the other students were from like HarvardPrinceton, Yale and Oxford

So so I was like I was like low key elite

Not to not to you know, but also this is yourfirst time like experiencing

Living abroad like for a long period of time aswell, right?

And and in an incredible I mean the epitome of theivory tower

That's true. Yeah. Yeah

It does not get more ivory than that

It really doesn't get more ivory tower than that

And again, my mentality going in was

Oh, just like work hard show up with all of yourcommentaries and translations to prepare forseminar

and instead the environment was

Professor and the male students are just banteringfor two hours and that was it, right?

I attended one seminar a week and it was just

It was men fighting

um

And the whole time

I just felt like I don't belong here, you know anduh

This is this is not what I thought the experiencewas going to be

And my housemates remember me coming back everyweek and just crying

Because I was so

upset and um, I was just so intimidated by thewhole

experience, um and

You know flash forward like whatever 10 yearslater

Some of my classmates in those years when I was amaster student became my colleagues like we had bythen

Got our PhDs. We were lecturers

Um, we were teaching the same classes with oneanother

And we had this conversation where I was like, oh,hey

Joe, remember that seminar

And you know that that's that, you know now friendformer former classmate revealed to me like oh

Well, he also had really deep anxiety and had apanic attack while he was there

He was like

Like everything that the professors and reviewerslike you're anonymously graded

On all of your essays and stuff

I mean, it's just a very intellectually hostileculture and it bred this deep fear and anxiety

In all of us that we were just never going to begood enough

um, and

I thought that everybody else was just like outthere having a blast performing how smart they are

They looked like they were cruising

Yeah, and it turns out like everybody

Had profound anxiety

And it was cohort after cohort

Of people again many of whom are my dear dearfriends now who've all been through the sameprogram

Had very similar experiences, right but like

You you can have a wonderful social time again.You're in this kind of cloistered ivory towerposition

Um, but intellectually it was a very hostile kindof sink or swim environment

Was that really different from your undergrad?Extremely different from undergrad

So this is a UK versus US education systemdifference where you know

Undergrad in the US was very much like you attendlectures you go to section

You get a very broad

um liberal arts education

And you're kind of being you're being taught you're being taught and coached

Um, and I was I was really good at that. I wasalso good at research

But I also it was also a different I I jumpedfields. I I jumped into a very niche field

I didn't really understand and there was no um

There was no context setting there was no kind ofthis is what this approach is about

This is what this field is about. Here are thedifferent methods

It was like launch into your seminar and have abattle with the professor. So

Institutional difference cultural difference, butalso again a field difference

So all of that is preface

All of that is kind of preparatory story that Itell my students. I basically say like look

My experience was that it was very intellectuallydifficult

Socially incredibly rewarding and enriching. Iwouldn't have traded

I wouldn't have traded that experience foranything

I did not understand that at the time. I shouldnot have felt that way, right?

It wasn't my problem that I felt dumb and then Ididn't belong and that I was crying all the time

Nobody in the institution none of theadministrators

um

Whatever did anything to be like? Oh, you knowwhat? Maybe we should think about making ourseminar culture more inclusive

Maybe we should think about students that don'tcome from the same backgrounds have the same kindof methodological or disciplinary training

And maybe we should do a kind of introduction towhat this is all about, right?

A bit of private would have helped. Yeah

Like maybe we should pull back the curtain on someof these norms and set some expectations, right?And

You know

There are all these kind of stories that I couldtell that are just word of mouth of people who'vecome through and be like

Oh, remember when so-and-so said that thing thatthing and it was like so outrageous and we laughbecause they're war stories

And the problem with that is that right like kindof like in ballet

we trade these war stories about like

学術界における「バリア」の経験：博士課程とキャリア形成

Oh, yeah

I remember we had that teacher that would liketake the cane and like whack us on the leg to getour leg higher

Or so-and-so would hold a lighter under her leg toget her like it's like

You're like wait, we should be laughing at this

We should be thinking why was this even allowed inthe first place?

Why did we not have the tools and the knowledgeand the kind of

Institutional bravery to be like wait, this is notokay

But that's the thing right with academia. I think

when you don't know

what it's

Sort of like the norm and you're venturing in forthe first time whether you're because you're afirst-gen university

Students in your family or your first-gen

masters doctors people like you don't know thisspace you're not familiar with it and

You don't know any better

So like you you don't know any better and you justthink it's okay. Exactly

Yeah, and what I tell my students

is like

a

That's not normal. You should be aware of it.There's a very distinct institutional culture

I hope your experience is better than mine and b

Doing this for the socially enriching culturallyenriching aspect of it is totally

A good excuse to do it but know that you are goingto be in a different institutional culture

And academia is very slow to change

I hope you have a better experience than I do

I want to believe that you will because I do thinknorms are changing

And and I still have students who apply for thesereally prestigious scholarships. They do master'sdegrees

They go on to do PhDs or whatever, but um

You know, I I think that's a good

Like story or reflection to begin with because Ido think it reveals all these kind of like

aspects of academia that are so slow to change

That we just kind of accept is like well if youdon't know any better

I guess this is just the way it is, but it doesn'thave to be

and I also um, that was one of the reasons whywhen I started teaching

I like vowed to never run a seminar like that

And and this is again like thinking about thinkingabout the theme of barriers, right?

Like I am I am responsible for teaching students

the

skill of critical reading and writing and they aregoing to be grappling with texts from like

17th century English philosophy right 18th centurylike moral theory

This is really hard stuff

It does them a disservice for me to just slap abook down on the table and be like

All right. What are your thoughts right? Which ishow I was treated when I was a graduate student

And I was like wow, I really don't want to dothis. I feel like I don't belong right all like

That's where imposter syndrome came from

Yeah, so like I run a very different kind ofseminar

Everybody gets passages on handouts. We read themout loud

I make sure we all have the same basicunderstanding like textual interpretation

And then I staffled the questions and those areall like again very

Niche pedagogical techniques, but it but it comesfrom this experience where I just felt like oh mygod. There were all these

informal and kind of cultural barriers to myfeeling like I was learning anything and

that I belonged um

And and again, those are those are like subtle butreally meaningful changes

and and again

I don't do that because I'm like

I have to knock down barriers for womenspecifically. It's like no no, right?

Everybody deserves to feel like they can access

Challenging and difficult texts like the morechallenging something is the more inclusive yourteaching practice needs to be

um, the the more you should feel like you shouldum

Do more to feel to make your students feelsuccessful

That that's that's like language that they feellike ballet teachers use right?

Where it's like you're you're given this reallychallenging step or this combination

You're just like trying to figure out like why can't I do this triple pirouette or whatever it is

And and the teacher will be like, okay. Well, howcan we make you feel more successful doing this,right?

It's not just like work harder

Turn out more like I love it when it when ateacher is just like just turn out more and you'relike

um, just jump my body like literally can't

so so it's about like finding

what makes

that particular thing

feel more successful in your body that day, rightand like

same goes for teaching I think

So would you say this was like your first kind ofbarrier experience?

um

Yes, I would say that like in terms of a formativeexperience for me

Understanding like what I was getting into when wetalk about like what is it like to be a woman inacademia?

Yes

um at the same time

It didn't occur to me that the barriers werebecause I was a woman or because

I was of Asian descent like

again

I think culturally and also personally I wasn't atthe place

where

Identity politics was the first thing that came tomind

For for me. It was very much a like

Oh, wow academia really is about sink or swim

um

I feel like an outsider for for whatever reasonsright and I could come up with all kinds ofexplanations

now

retroactively

Yeah, you just felt like overwhelming sense ofrejection and like I don't belong here

Not necessarily being able to pinpoint why

Yeah, yeah, and and I think the easiestexplanation for me was this isn't the right field.I'm not good enough

I don't want to do it, which is ironic because Itried to switch fields, right?

I did one master's degree. I switched fields didanother master's degree in the meantime appliedfor phd programs ended up doing

The field that like I felt rejected in so I can't

Yeah, it

You know life works in very very funny ways

um

And I tell students this too like I I'm incrediblygrateful for the education I got

I didn't feel like I was learning at the time. Ididn't feel like I was successful at all

um

I I I think because it was so clouded by feelingsof

Incompetence

And like feeling like I wasn't up to

um

Thanks for sharing all of this experience. I feellike I haven't even heard this like your uk erastories

the uk era story

yeah, but

I think it's really curious to me how like you had

What seems like a pretty terrible at least likethe first big obstacle in your way academically

um at master's degree

What sort of made you not give up there? Like whatmade you want to do more?

Um two things one I didn't know any better

like

truly, it was like a I didn't do any better. I waslike I just so focused on

Being a good student being smart, right? Like I Ijust knew I wanted more books. I wanted more

Ideas, I wanted to write like I loved reading andwriting and teaching

um, I hadn't I hadn't had teaching experience yet.I mean I was like a TA as an undergrad, but um,yeah

Like I knew that this was the thing that I wanted.It was like part of my identity part of what Iloved

And then the second thing was my second year

In a master's program in a different field

Was a completely different experience like I had

Four or five male colleagues so much smallercohort and we were like all best friends. It waslike the most supportive

friendly collegial

bonding experience I've like

I had never had until to that point

and

and

I just felt like these are my people like theseare my friends. These are my colleagues

It was a completely different experience. So there

You found a sense of belonging you're like I canbe here. Yeah, and I can take part in this

but also there was a sense of like

I know I can be here and take part in this becauseI'm not going to be here forever. Like I'm not

I I was in a weird place right again. I hadswitched fields

I was also applying to phd programs back in the u.s

And I kind of knew at the back of my mind that Iwasn't going to be doing this forever

So I kind of was like, all right

Like go all in on this. It's kind of quote for fun

Well, maybe that's another thing, right?

Like I'm hearing this pattern and like apologiesfor me sounding like no not at all like a psychoanalyst, but I feel like

Well one like the the reason why you wanted youwere able to keep on you know

Doing what you were set out to do was yourmotivation was internal, right? It wasn't becauseyou wanted

your

Parents to think of you as a good student

Or like it wasn't because you know you forwhatever reason decided that you must get a phd orelse, right?

It was just purely you wanted to learn more andthe way to do it was to do more of this academicroute

and

At the same time this second year experience

I loved that you

Sort of like switched your focus on just beingsuccessful to like actually enjoying

the process

And the time the limited time that the sort oflimited time that you

Can see now now that you've decided that you know,okay in some moments

I'm like abandoning this in a short time-ishfuture. So like now you can have fun and sort oflike your

primary focus to impress and succeed in

sort of uk way has sort of taken a back seat andactually

Became more about how much can you enjoy thisremaining time?

And yeah, it's really interesting that thatbrought you back then to your initial interest

um

Yeah, and and I guess this is a good way to segueto kind of like okay

Well, what were the barriers like when I did startmy phd?

um, because again, I had jumped fields and thereason is because

I think I said at the beginning. I'm a politicaltheorist in a government department also known aspolitical science

So my phd is in political science, but because Icame in with such a historical focus

In the US right doing the history of politicalthought means you get a political science degree.It's very weird. Um, but

um

But it was a field jump for me. Like again, I wasI was

I didn't really understand what political scienceas a big tent in the social sciences was

I just knew I wanted to keep doing kind of ahistory of political and economic ideas. So again,I kind of like

one of the themes of this is like

Barriers arise because you don't know any better

And you run into them

when you kind of

um

Don't have the clue

And it's not your fault

Not your fault like I didn't know what

Political science was as a research field. I justknew I wanted to study the history of

Democratic ideas and like capitalism. Yeah

um

But like I had no clue

Right what it meant to kind of go into this fieldand to be a producer of the field

I knew what it was to be a consumer, right? Sobarriers are there

You just don't know because you've never done thisbefore that's like a common common theme

I think there there has to be a bit of like audacity

or like fearlessness

When you're trying something as hard as you know

Becoming an expert in a field because like yousaid it's it's one of my funny like favoritestories to tell

um to my friends and my like, you know mentees andstuff, but

The first day of grad school I walked in and Ithought I had some idea of what my PI was doing

My advisor was doing in his research that he spent25 years doing and I

Just like blatantly asked like why don't you lookat this?

Phenomena between two different molecules asopposed to watching what happens to one moleculeonly

Let me know when you figure it out. We'll get anoble prize, right? Like that's how

I was I had no clue

I basically like thankfully my

Advisor understood that I was just a newbie whohad no clue and did not take it as an offensivething

But that's just how clueless I was and I didn'trealize how freaking difficult

What I was about to start was you know, and Ithink that's why I could do it

It's not either or it's like it's like you I

We were both clueless and audacious, right? And

Um, maybe that's like a deadly combination ormaybe it's a winning combination

It kind of depends on institutional context andlike again, you had a great supportive mentor

the first dissertation project that I proposed wasoutrageous like

A full professor at an elite university is writinga book on that and it's like her fifth book,right?

This that that was the idea that I proposed as agraduate student

I could not pull that off. But what I end upcarving out and and like

I only found out that that was going to be unachievable because I like

Wrote two-thirds of the prospectus and I was likethere's no way I can do this

Like I just yeah, I'm so dissatisfied with this

And then I ended up figuring out this otherquestion that it did end up being an award-winningbook

So like it all turned out well, but but there isthis moment where like

Um

Uh you you kind of walk in blind

You confront the barriers and then you have achoice, right? You're like, okay

How do I go around this?

But also who's helping you and and how do theytreat you when you when you run into that barrier?

Um, so maybe this is this is

something where we can talk about kind of likeagain the

The centrality of having good advisors again

We we both said like we were so lucky

To have mentors and advisors who were there for usand who supported us

They they they cared not only about ourintellectual success, but I can definitely say umfor my advisors

They cared about me as a person

And you know, that's one difference between a non-STEM and STEM field where it's like for you

I think you really are like it's like ride or diewith your PI

For me I had to have I had to have a network,right?

So I had advisors. Um, my my dissertationcommittee was chaired by somebody in history andby somebody in political science

and

And I had a network of people right like I and Itell my students this too, right like

Um

Academia is really weird. Nobody has time

Everybody wants you to do everything

But nobody can do everything for you. That meansyou have to build yourself a web of support

because

you're gonna

this like

This is a very very hard thing to do

Like what you were trying to do is very hard

You need to have somebody there who can be anexpert on your specific field

You need somebody who can be a shoulder that youcan cry on

And you need somebody to just help you do the kindof big picture professional advice

Damn, that sounds like near nearly impossible toget right like you can't no single person can beall three things

and so

Um

when

Again, just thinking about like okay academia isfull of these barriers

What enabled us to succeed?

I was lucky in that like I did have advisors whoserved those purposes but separately, right?

It was like I knew I could go to this person forthe professional advice honest professional advice

I could go to this person when I just had like

Crappy stuff and mess to go through and theywouldn't like non-judgmental space either to talkabout personal stuff

Yeah safe space and then the person who was goingto read and like give me comments on my footnotes

Like the person I was like slightly intimidated bybut like really needed

But we'll save you from like a lifetime ofembarrassment too

Exactly and and that's the thing right is thatlike in order to get over the many barrierswhether they're kind of personal

professional or just kind of structural

all those

Aspects of mentorship are absolutely crucial. Um,so again, like I I was lucky but I was alsoconscientious and

strategic right like I I

I kind of like

If there was one advisor in particular who waslike i'm much closer with her now, but like Iremember always feeling like intimidated

Um, and so like I would I would I would be nervousbefore our meetings because I was like, oh my god

Like I am I ever good enough?

Um, and that feeling still hasn't gone away

But it's dissipated for sure

um, but I

kind of learned right over time that like

part of

Being an academic means that you do have to wearthese different faces like I don't show myvulnerable side

at all times

Yeah, like you have to be very strategic. Like i'mnot going to go talk to the chair of my departmentand like

Just say

show my vulnerable side right and

And again, we can we can critique that we can havelike a whole social diagnosis of like why that'sproblematic

and

Or maybe why that just is the way it is and why it's so hard to change

but like you I I did find myself kind of organically developing these interactions

and

Navigating these networks

Of like this is this is a safe space

Right and this is the place where I really need toput on my game face

Do you think that kind of you described organicbut like do you think this kind of like naturallystrategic?

バレエ経験と学術界でのメンターシップ

mindset when it comes to

What do you need from mentors, right? Like do youthink that sort of first started developing inyour ballet training?

That's a really good question

because I also

I'm thinking

Right because I feel like

When you're growing up doing pretty intense ballettraining whether you it was your choice or not

uh, you usually have

A few teachers you it's I mean, yeah one mainteacher perhaps but like there's usually a coupleother teachers

and

As you sort of mature as a dancer you realize howcrucial it is to have this different backgroundteachers teaching you

Yes different things. Yeah, like even if it's thesame plie

That you've been doing it for 20 years

One person says one thing and it gives you it'sgonna feel different with Marcus Shulkin. Yeah

Yeah, exactly. Yeah Marcus love him. But um, likeit's one of our favorite ballet teachers in Boston

Who we drove like two hours for um, yeah, likeexactly that one of the first sort of like

Matured as a dancer moment was when I realizedthat my teacher was kind of wrong

Like my my childhood teacher was kind of wrong

Um, yeah, because I've been only taught to do thisone way and I heard somebody else do completelydifferent way

And it just made more sense for my anatomy

And yeah, I was like

oh

This whole 15 years and like at that point. I'veonly lived for 20 years, right?

Like and this whole time I was taught to do thisone way and that there was only one way to do this

and

This whole time there was a completely another wayto approach

That would solve the problem

I had no idea like this kind of like

Really visceral experience of learning fromdifferent things from different teachers

I feel like

that

Sort of first first of all taught me that no oneteacher is always correct

Which I think a lot of sort of type a smart kidsin undergrad or high school

tend to forget

because like they usually identify and resonatewith one person and like they think it's like

end all and be all

but um

I feel like my ballet training has sort of

Uh, not only kind of made me sort of coachablestudent, right like easy to teach

but also um made me open to different methodsdifferent teaching methods and be yeah, actually

you don't have to sort of

Reconcile that you are allowed to take advice fromboth and like make it work for you

and

I think that might have kind of

Helped me navigate academia because if one personthought

I was a bad student incompetent

Whatever. It didn't bog me down like it. It wasjust this one person's opinion

and

Uh, I mean, hopefully not my primary advisor'sopinion, but like

right even then

I saw that like other people see me at acompletely different light and see differentstrength in me

and

To to be able to have that kind of like a metaperspective

I think as a student was really helpful because Ididn't think my advisors

Every word was a gospel, right? Like I I alwaystalked with him critically and he expected thatfrom me as well

And he always asked, uh, you know catch me if Iget something wrong

You know that kind of thing, right? So yeah, like

I didn't think that like he was like, you know

the legend like like everything he says is correctkind of like

worship figure which

Sometimes I feel like grad students kind of fallinto that trap

yeah, but when I was able to have this kind oflike

I'm gonna take what I can from different peopleand make it work for me

um

that

was like

When I realized that one

Networking isn't just for the sake of networking,right?

Like yeah that it's actually useful and that I canmake something out of it

and to

Gives me this like a critical

Mindset it's okay

If like one thing doesn't work out or one personthinks i'm like a stupid person

It didn't become a barrier to me, which I think

Can easily imagine for many people it can become abig barrier, right?

Like where you want to like end your career there

and

Yeah, maybe that's why I was like able to kind oflike okay. I take that as a criticism

I can probably make something work for me, butokay

Like that's not gonna stop me though from like,you know doing what I want to do

Yeah

育児とキャリアの両立、そして新たな壁

I hadn't thought about that before it's it'sinteresting

I mean it's so much of that resonates with me. Ittotally makes sense again. I think there's you andI have this um

very unique

and special ability to kind of translate ourembodied knowledge and experience as dancers andto kind of also how we

Think as academics

and there's

Certainly, I think like I remember thinking aboutthis in like one of the first contemporaryphilosophy classes that I ever took about this

This idea of autonomy and what it means to be likea person

And like how you learn rules and habits and alsohow you decide to like carve out a life of yourown

Yeah, and that's not something that's like an onor off switch

But it's like a it's like something you learnthrough practice. Yeah. Yeah, like you said withyour ballet training

It's like for the first 10 years of your life isjust rules rules rules technique technique do itright

Right. Yeah, and then a certain point you're like

Oh, I need to understand how to make this my own

I need to understand how to make this feelsuccessful in my body

And oh, there are different ways of approachingthis there are different images that I can usethere are different

there are different ways of

um embodying a certain step and um

It's interesting because the most serious that Iwas

as a dancer like the most performance the mosttraining was when I was in grad school and

part of that is just kind of like

I don't know the intensity of my personality likeI really needed that like I just yeah

Needed to structure my day. I needed to know thatthere was something else besides being smart

Like I also needed to be a dancer

And I also know knew that like as a dancer thatwasn't my entire life like I needed something elsethat was grounding me

Yeah, it's super interesting because likecertainly the ballet training. I mean, it's such adouble-edged sword, right?

Like there's an aspect of it that that um

brings out

all the

problematic

Aspects of perfectionism and there's certainlythings about like perfectionism

Yeah, yeah, certainly a victim of that andcertainly translates over into some aspects ofacademic life

But then there's also just like resilience rightbecause at a certain point when you become matureenough as a person

You learn to be like, oh, yeah, whatever myturnout's not perfect

That's just like I'm just gonna accept there'sthis kind of like radical acceptance aspect of it

Which I think is part of the resilience rightwhere you just learn like

part of academic success is not just being thesmartest and churning out the nerdiest most

like

the like truly perfect paper

Right. It's weird because or I find it interestingthat like

I am like a mid perfectionist when it comes to mywork because I care so much more about getting itdone

like

Interesting. I'm extremely extremely goal-oriented

Um, I never took an extension. I never

Like I never turned anything late. It would alwaysbe done weeks early so I'd have enough time torevise

So like there's there's that aspect of just kindof like sheer

um

Like just just the the um

practice and discipline

of

meeting goals

which

There's a dark side to this too, which is to be sogoal oriented that you either like

Like it can be all consuming right and and yeah,and sometimes it's like is that goal really worthit?

Like maybe you should actually just chill out abit more

And again, I I want to be very clear like themessage here isn't like oh

You can overcome all barriers if you just workhard and meet your deadlines like that is not atall

I'm describing a

peculiar quirk of my personality

But I think what um

Where we're um

We're kind of like your own individual dispositions and your own way of like setting goals andyeah

Being determined and resilient all this stuff likethere are nevertheless going to be these barriers.Um, whether it's

institutionalized racism sexism or just the sheerlike

insanity of the standards in academia, right likeall those things started to come to light

pretty late in my graduate student career like asI was going on to the job market as I was

kind of transitioning into being a postdoc, butalso like

Where we were as a country and as a culture

people started to ask questions like

Have you ever felt like a minority like are youreally a minority?

Because I am a woman of asian american descent atan elite university

where

Like again, I don't know the numbers on this. Sodon't quote me but like

asians

are

overrepresented in higher education, but kind oflike

underrepresented in other ways

And that doesn't really, you know map neatly ontoclass, right? It has to just be like

Like we're not talking about

Yes, exactly, but when you look at the specificfield that I'm in like

modern

british and american intellectual history that isdominated by like

basically british dudes

and

I'm like this

sort of mid outgoing asian american woman enteringinto a field dominated by men

you know after

many times failing on the job market and I cantalk about what it's like

just

Go through the job talks and the interviews, youknow year after year after year

And to make it to the finalists and to feel sogood and then not get a job, you know

by like the fifth rejection

I

had to wonder

Is it because of the way I look and that had neveroccurred to me before right it it never was it wasalways

It must be because I'm not good enough. I'm notsmart enough. I didn't publish the right things

I you know, my file isn't good enough, but at acertain point it did cross my mind and I had towonder

Is it because people aren't used to seeingsomebody like me in this field?

And I'd like to think that that isn't the case

But the fact that I started asking that question

And other people were asking me questions again

I want to contextualize this. This is the era likewhere I had to start writing diversity statements.And so it was a

professional requirement for me to basicallyperform

Whatever right like I had to kind of

Write it out on paper

How what is your commitment to diversity equityand inclusion and like, you know again

side commentary about the problems of like

necessitating this in the profession

but

But like all these questions of like how werethese barriers whether they're based on youridentity or the particular field

These were being made super salient when I was onthe job market and I was on the job market

every year between 2017 and literally last year

That's crazy

That's crazy. And again, I was applying for jobsevery single year since 2017

While having pretty secure employment like not atenure track job. That's true. But I I worked andtaught at elite universities

so

um

it it's

It was brutal

like I

Can't like there's a whole separate podcast justabout like the brutality of the academic jobmarket

But since we're like focusing specifically kind oflike well, how did you how did you experiencethese barriers?

it was very much like uh

These barriers were made salient to me because ofthe nature of applying for academic jobs and whatyou have to do

Like literally are required for these DEIstatements to talk about your commitments todiversity equity inclusion

and

Again, there's this whole critique now about likewhat what is expected? What why are thesestatements even required?

What are you supposed to like be right? Like whydo we have to spell it out? Why do I have to spellthis out?

And and then again after kind of rejection afterrejection I remember having

um

Having drinks with an old mentor of mine

And and you know, he had bought me champagnebecause my book had just come out and it was sonice

um and

And I said like Rob, I think oh, I just said hisname. Well, that's fine. It's Rob

um, you know, I think there's something wrong withme

um, like I

I'm so proud of the work that I've done and yetthe job market has been so rough

um

And he's like, you know, I find that really hardto believe Glory

um, because you're just like you're killing it andI'm like, yeah, but I'm just

Really bad at political theory

um

like I I just I'm just

Not a good political theorist like I I think I'venailed what I'm doing as an intellectual historian

But I'm you know, and again like I have to gettenure as a political theorist

So I was I was expressing my anxieties again aboutbeing like kind of an imposter

I'm, like I'm just not going to be good enough

I keep getting rejected in these jobs and he'slike why don't you ever think about it the otherway?

Why don't you ask the question?

What is it about the field that is not identifyingwhy you're so good, right?

And it was one of these like moments where I wasjust kind of like

Like my head kind of exploded

Because I had been so groomed and primed to thinklike it is entirely my responsibility

To kind of right whatever perform my race perform,you know, like perform the kind of minoritized

status but also

leap over every single barrier and like

Be the most published wet most award recognizedblah blah blah blah blah

It's my fault for failing

and instead

Like again, my mentor just kind of did the

Thing that social theorists do which is to belike, well, why don't you think about like theunreasonable standards of the field?

Yeah

And and I remember, you know asami I came acrossthe screenshot that I had taken

I remember we had talked about this because it wasthere's a ballet version of this too, right?

Which is like you and I are both super superserious dancers

And I'm like trained at a professional level

even though that's not our job

and

You know people ask like well, why didn't you goprofessional?

and

You know one very easy answer which is I think insome ways extinct instinctive

It's just to say like oh, I wasn't I wasn't toughenough or like I just I couldn't cut it

and

The flip side is like or did the profession makeunreasonable demands of your mind and body

and you're like, oh, yeah

oh, yeah, there's that too

so

one thousand percent and I think if there's one

like other big lesson from this whole conversationis like

Always ask yourself

Like is it is it my problem? Am I falling short oris the profession?

making unreasonable demands

of my mind and body

um

and maybe the last stage of barriers that I cantalk about is kind of like what it was like to gofrom

like postdoc to lecturer and now tenure track

um

professor

also having a kid, you know like

the thing

that

I

would like

Knew at the level of reason and facts was like oh

Women get tenured at lesser at lower rates

It's much harder because like women, you know faceall kinds of obligations

They're like default parent default caregiver

um, you'd have to take time off if you have a kidall these things and it's like sure like maybeyour

Institution gives you a little bit of time off

But like it's not time off. You're not publishingyou're

Changing your nursing pads and changing diapersconstantly and you're not sleeping

and um

The the biggest barrier for me

when I

Had a kid and I was in this big leadershipposition and I was also like

Trying to finish publication

I was also applying for jobs because I was tryingto get a retention offer like it was not right

I can't believe I did that right and it was like ajust kind of you you get through it

and

I remember thinking like coming back to work whilelike breastfeeding an infant

and and the barriers that I faced were not like oh

You're gonna get fired unless you show up fivetimes a week. It was it was not like

that level of discrimination

or work injustice

but it very much was a kind of

People still

um

Haven't calibrated their expectations

in a way where I feel like I can

Take care of a young child and also do my job

um and the boundaries

right like

um

It is a very

male-coded

or kind of like

male attitude to just like

Well, okay. I don't even know if I want to saythat maybe maybe what was I just edit that out

It's just like

some of the some of the aspects of academia

That you really take for granted are things likegoing to a seminar that starts at 4 45 at night

or like yeah, the schmoozing and the networkingand the events that happen at dinner time

and

Suddenly when you have a young child you're like

Uh, I can't do that

I have to go pick up my child and it is an allhands on deck operation until

She's asleep at night

yeah, and I I kind of knew at the cognitive levelthat like professors with young kids were

um a little bit more constrained

But until I actually went through it and I startedgetting really annoyed anytime

My boss would like text me at 7 p.m

On a friday for something that needed to be dealtwith then I'd be like dude

I can't or like all these events that I wasgetting invited to that were happening at night orthings that would start at 4

pm

and

Again, it's one of these things where it's likethat's that's um

not

the kind of barrier

That you face as like a woman of color in academia

Trying to apply like that's a different kind ofbarrier. It's it's one of these things where likethe whole academic culture

needs to change

Because it's disadvantaging

people who have a lot of care obligations orpeople with young children

yeah

And people can say like oh, don't worry

That's not going to affect your tenure file,right?

Like you're going to be evaluated based on yourpublication record and impact on the field

And you're like come on

Does anybody really believe that because guesswhat your tenure letters come from people

Who you have to network with at conference

They have to know you know your work have a goodperception of your impact in the field

So there there are these ways in which and againlike nobody's going to write a tenure letter

That's like well glory was at this dinner. And soI think she's like it's not like that causalrelationship

but but so

Much of the work that you do and i'm sure you canappreciate this too, right?

Even in STEM is that when you go to conferenceswhen you're having casual drinks

Sometimes you have really productive reallyintellectually vibrant connections andconversations that happen

And when that is no longer available to you

um

Because you have other constraints

It becomes really hard and it starts to feel likeyou're um

It just starts to feel

Extremely challenging and like a source of

I don't know how else to put this like

Self-disappointment where like you constantly feellike you're not doing enough

And that you're never going to be able to doenough and I would say right now that is thebiggest

um

Barriers that isn't necessarily the right word. Imean in some ways it does it does feel like abarrier

But I feel like it's a different different kind ofbarriers than the ones you have. Uh so far, youknow

Uh overcame successfully this is like, you know,this ongoing barrier is

Sort of like a new material like, you know, it'snot something you can kind of power through orblow those through

It's something that you need to like

Uh figure out a new way to overcome so thebarriers truly just don't go away. I guess theydon't they don't they change

um, they change

um, some are very explicit and

You know horrible and like

Yes, yes, i'm not talking about those ones i amtalking about barriers that are more kind of like

I am they're they're

They're institutional constraints that have effecton your own choices, right?

So it can make you feel like it's all up to youand at the same time

You are so constrained in what you're able to dothat. You're like, well, I

It's not really a it's not really pure choice

um

So, you know if I want to have another kid

For instance i'm like well

How is this going to affect my?

You know tenure clock blah blah

Do I really get a choice on when to have a kid?Like biology doesn't really work that way

Yeah, yeah, you know like I have to build up ateaching record if that happens in the middle of asemester

How is that going to affect my um ability to kindof do the kind of teaching that I want to do?

It's like these these are um

Things that in a perfect world right where we havelike

Universal child care and paid family leave that'sfully supported by the federal government, whichwill never happen in this country

But like

Things that would make those choices feel lessburdensome

But at the moment

um again given the kind of

Context that I live in

They are

Deeply personal and professional choices that youhave to make and ones that like are you know, even

Even down to things like my commute, right? Whendo I leave campus in order to get home?

So that I can

Be there for dinner time. Yeah, and make sure Iget her to sleep. Um, yeah like

There are these like micro decisions that never goaway that are part of your daily grind and yourcalculus of like

I have eight hours in the workday. Those are hardconstraints. I can't really do work outside ofthose eight hours because I am

Taking care of a child who's completely dependenton me

And that's gonna change as you know, the kid getsolder and stuff

But it's not gonna reduce my obligations for careand balancing that with

The work that I want to do and like myprofessional aspirations. Um

Yeah, so yeah, I mean that's that's about where Iam. Like I don't have a solution. It's just

It's it's a reflection on

The way these barriers have really changed overtime depending on

State of my career, but also the evolution of like

All the ways in which we think about theseproblems

Yeah, no, that's that's really

学術界の変革と希望

Like, you know, not even gonna try and wrap it upnicely because there's just you know, no needconclusion to this

No, it's just an ongoing thing that one has tothink about but I guess if I can state one silverlining is that you know

When people like you do become

The position in power who can have influencedirect and hopefully immediate

You know influence on these

Infrastructural changes you then

You know academia will then start to change andyou know things will start shifting

You know in a geological clock way like in aslowly but hopefully shortly

In a direction that makes more sense to morepeople and not just some

same looking dudes

Yeah, and I feel again super lucky to be at aninstitution now

エピソードの締めくくり

where like

I'm part of a cohort that meets every month

As new faculty where there are like super senioraward-winning faculty that just give you straighttalk

For like two hours. Yeah, and it's so refreshingbecause you hear you have these like

full professors men and women

Who just tell it how it is tell tell it like it isto give you the really honest advice

um

About like what it means to go up for tenure

um what to do when a student asks you about thisand you're not their advisor

like and and helping you especially women becauseso much of the I mean, this is another thing thatI've like

faced as I've um advanced in my career is thatlike so much of the extra

um academic care work right like mentoringstudents

Who aren't even your official students readinglike everybody wants you to be their advisor

reach

Yeah, like I I found that like students werecoming to me for life advice all the time

Like they weren't going to my male colleagues.They were coming to me

um, and that's just a pattern that I seeeverywhere, um, all of my women colleagues

Yeah, but um, yeah exactly i'm not your mother iam i'm your professor but um, you know again like

Having senior colleagues do that advocacy work andtell you how to do it so that you don't

End up doing unnecessary work, but it feelsauthentic to you. Like I see that being done by

The generation of senior scholars now. I know it'spossible

I see it being done. I have examples and I didn'thave those examples when I was in grad school, butnow I have them

and

But it's my goal in life to be that when i'm atthat level too, right?

Is that like there is still work the work happensat the margins?

But it's happening because i've even noticed thechanges between when I was a graduate student andwhen i'm now when i'm a professor

So that's hopeful, right?

Yeah, that that keeps you hopeful and we are ifanything tenacious, so

um, you know, we'll keep at it I guess yeah

But sadly you have to get going and get back toyour busy day, but thank you so much glory for

Talking to me and the rest of the listeners. I'llyou know, um, I can I can put your you know

Links or whatever if you want, you know people tofollow your work and whatnot

Thanks so much everyone. It was really fun

That's it for the show today. Thanks for listeningand find us on x at eigo de science that is

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