00:13
Hi, Asami. How's it going?
It's going.
I'll probably talk about this as a podcast at some point in retrospect, but currently it is going.
I also realized after I said it out of reflex that it was full of a loaded question.
Yeah, it is going. Anywho, it is the time of the month where we do our monthly installment of 科学系ポッドキャスト.
It never gets easier to say 科学系ポッドキャスト. 科学系, it's hard to say.
I think it's hard for you.
Anyway, this month is a rather special month because it is our two-year anniversary of starting 科学系ポッドキャスト.
We only participated, Masako and I started participating in like around three or four or something.
It didn't happen every month for the first year or so, but I think for the past at least a year or so, we've been pretty consistent with this event.
For those of you who heard this for the first time, 科学系ポッドキャスト, we self-proclaim 科学系ポッドキャスト people.
We'll decide on one theme, usually the host of the month decides on the theme and this whole cohort of 科学系ポッドキャスト people,
either people who are consistently always scientific or as well as people who just want to jump in for the theme, can join.
And so basically have a whole slew of podcasts talking about the same theme.
And of course, every podcast is going to interpret slightly differently, talk about different topics.
And we tend to have a pretty open-ended sort of theme.
And this month is, because it's a second anniversary, we have our original host of the 科学系ポッドキャスト, サイエントークのレンさんとエマさん,
that's hosting this event and their theme for this month is 教会.
And I know that there are lots of Japanese words, homonyms with the sound 教会.
It could mean church, it could mean association.
03:01
But here we're talking about 教会 that means boundaries in English, I think.
And when I first heard it, my nerdy brain goes, ah, boundary conditions.
But then I realized, is that the same word that's been used in Japanese?
And I did look it up.
I did have to look up because I didn't know how to say boundary conditions in Japanese.
I never had to.
And it is damn right, 教会条件 is what it is, boundary conditions.
But rather than boring our listeners talking about boundary conditions for, you know, an hour,
I figured Lev would take a lead on this one because as I said earlier, you know,
things are going in my life and did not have a ton of bandwidth to come or plan any sort of good topics.
So I actually have no idea what Lev is going to talk about.
So Lev, what do you have for us?
I'm coming in with a surprise.
It's okay. I feel like...
I really hope it's not boundary conditions.
Absolutely not.
There was...
I'm not sure what the probability of me introducing boundary conditions would have been to this particular topic.
It's a very interesting concept, a very necessary concept for the shit I do day to day basis.
However, I don't know how to spin that in an entertaining way.
Well, I mean, if people are here for the science, right,
then they're probably like...
there is a high chance that they are in the nerdiness enough category
to be excited by a discussion of boundary conditions in English.
Sure, but I use boundary conditions.
I'm not particularly passionate about it.
Yeah, it's a tool.
I don't even know if tool is the right word for that, actually.
It's a way to frame and constrain your problems.
Yeah, right.
So that you can simplify your problems in some way, shape or form.
I guess, yeah, this is deviating from the notes I have, but that's perfect.
Because what that made me think of was, I guess, you could consider
like bounding your problems to be something applicable to everyday life, right?
Oh, just like in a metaphorical sense.
Yeah, like in a metaphorical sense, but it works in the technical sense
when you have an actual problem that is, you know, perhaps constrainable.
Expressible in mathematics.
Right, exactly. You know, you say, and as the limit goes to,
and you have a, you know, it's only between these regions that it's valid for,
you know, et cetera, et cetera, approximations upon approximations
in order to come with a functional practical solution, right?
All right, so I accidentally gave you a nice segue into your topic then.
Yeah, gave me a great segue into the topic.
Because when I heard it, because I spend and have spent probably more time,
06:05
I don't know, thinking about like how we as people tend to try
and interact with each other, I hear boundary and a lot of the discussion
that happens around me is like relational boundary stuff, right?
It's between people boundary things.
This isn't the only one that comes up.
Boundary conditions are, of course, definitely one.
The other, other than relational that I had was,
you had mentioned this actually, interdisciplinary, right?
So the boundaries between fields, right?
Yes, yes, yes. That was one of the examples, I think,
that Lansom put it up when he shared and announced the topic.
Perfect. Yep. Yep.
And so...
Going over the bounds of your own discipline.
Right. Yeah.
This later led me to a consideration of like,
what's the difference between a boundary and a barrier?
But we'll see if we have time to get to that at some point.
All right. Yeah.
But in that case, right? Boundary.
It's like the line is drawn around math, right?
Versus English literature as a field or a subject that you're going into.
So you start to be able to imagine the difference, right?
Those are clearly bounded in their own little spaces.
And so, yeah, you can cross those boundaries, right?
You can attempt to like merge, even maybe you could say those boundaries.
The boundary then, right?
If there's this idea of like trying to understand,
at least to work with somebody or to get to know them,
something like that.
The boundary is something sort of personal to you.
So a thing that is not necessarily like, you know,
either a firm or like a hard line on something,
but it's where you know that this situation is no longer
what you wish to be a part of, for example, right?
Like whatever is going on, I am not comfortable with.
I've expressed that.
But like I am going to take an action to maybe remove myself from it
or to sort of change the situation I'm in.
And I try to frame it like this because what I think a lot of people,
including myself, struggle to sometimes separate
is the difference between like a boundary and a rule within a relationship.
Okay, like a social rule.
So, yeah, you could think about it as a social rule.
You can also think about it as like just a rule that is maybe
trying to be enforced within a relationship.
So if somebody says, let's say,
you can't go on that trip next weekend because I don't want you to.
Like that would obviously that is a little silly.
It's also very clearly manipulative.
But the point being is that you've enforced,
09:02
you're trying to say the other person must do a certain thing
in their sort of space, in their line, in their framing.
It's not about you or what's happening there
or how you might be experiencing this, whatever the trip or something might be.
It's an attempt to exert control on the other person.
And so social rules are a good example of that on like a big scale.
These are rules that we agree should be set up as a control
so that we don't harm each other, for example.
Like stopping at a red light is a good idea if you drive cars.
That sounds like a good idea.
Yeah, it seems like if we've set up the system,
that would be a rule to be followed.
That's not a boundary.
It's not a personal choice whether you feel comfortable about the red light
and decide not to stop or something.
That's not how that works.
I don't want the analogies to get out of hand here,
but that's like a rule, right?
Yeah.
And so if you have boundary,
you might have something like a refocusing
at sort of what you're experiencing, right?
Let's take that strange, like you can't go on that trip next weekend.
You're like, I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of you going on this trip.
Maybe could we talk about it?
But also, if you were to go,
I might have to make a decision for myself
to become more comfortable,
to change something about the relationship we have, right?
It's a sort of personal placement that you can take an action on,
but you're not enforcing or controlling the other person's behaviors, right?
There's this subtlety there that I think is kind of hard to see.
I feel like that line gets quickly muddled
in a sort of dynamic between two people.
Yeah.
Especially when you have a lot of like sort of personal,
unspoken or unidentified rules that might exist, right?
Because of your social system around you
or like the general nature of things or your personal experiences.
And those things have become, they've become maybe,
this is a semi-tangent, but I think important,
what you're saying here,
they might have become rules as a way to create more comfort, right?
Like if I am clear that this has to happen,
if I make it so that this happens and is this way,
I am more secure, right?
I've created, I've forced the space to be secure.
I've created a sense of control.
Whereas if you don't do the rules,
12:01
if you just recognize that each person,
although working within sort of a social structure,
a society, right, is also their own person
and they might make decisions that are better for them
and better for others and whatever might be the case,
that you can make a choice to, okay, fine,
we will not have this interaction in this way anymore.
But you're still like a person doing your own thing
and I'm a person doing mine.
It's a very like, feels like a softer approach.
It's a more flexible approach to some of those things,
but it doesn't immediately feel as secure to a lot of people, right?
It's not, yeah.
Yeah, what I'm hearing so far is,
and correct me if I'm wrong,
is that one person's boundary, right,
within it, this person feels safe, secure, what have you.
One person's boundary might not be visible
or recognizable to the other person in the dynamic.
And this person B also has his or her own boundaries.
And when you're trying to sort of have a dialogue
that is meaningful, you need to negotiate
sort of how that boundary will look like
that both people can feel safe and secure within it.
But the negotiation process can be quite uncomfortable
depending on the person involved
or what it is that you're trying to negotiate.
And is that it?
Is that the idea that I got?
I think, yeah, I think you've captured
what the importance and the way of focusing
on boundaries in a relationship is, right?
The idea is about that sort of communication
over how we can feel comfortable
in our own sort of spaces and our boundaries
as they get closer and closer together
and not maybe slipping into enforcing
a particular situation on the other person
so that you yourself are made to feel more comfortable
or in control or something like that.
Perhaps it would be helpful to use like, you know,
if you type boundaries versus rules,
you get a whole bunch of articles on these topics,
especially recently because there are a couple of fields
that sort of reignited or picked up this discussion again.
And so a quote from a random psychology website,
it looks like, you know,
boundaries are about defining your own personal space,
limits and needs.
They're a way to communicate what you're comfortable with
and will not tolerate in a relationship.
So they're essential for maintaining your own well-being
and a sense of self.
15:01
Those are your boundaries,
which I think you covered nicely.
That's the stuff you can talk about
and see what each person is comfortable with
and where you are.
And just because you might have different levels of that
doesn't mean you can't like somehow work together.
But you need to find out where that middle ground
or where that like partial connection might be.
Yeah. Whereas...
But like, see, so like the part that complicates it, though,
it's like...
The part? There's probably many parts, but yeah.
There are probably many parts.
One of the parts that could complicate things is like,
what if I don't want to put that much effort
into connecting with this person?
Yeah, you don't.
Maybe it's like my boss and I don't really care
what he does in his free time.
I just need to be able to have a professional communication.
Like, I want that to be smooth and honest,
but like, I don't need to know everything about him.
So you...
I think the point is you don't.
That's exactly it. You don't have to, right?
Your boundary in that space,
if I understand this correctly, right,
is just...
No.
Like, it's just...
It's just your personal limit and space
is that in this environment,
I'm not here to like share and engage
in all these other things.
I'm not here to learn more about you.
I'm here to have a particularly structured exchange
and environment, right?
So like I can, I can,
quote unquote, bound
the limit of like how much effort I'll put in
to negotiate my boundaries.
Right. Yeah.
Because you don't...
You also don't have to negotiate your...
You do not have to.
There is no should or have to in any of this.
Negotiate the boundaries with the other person.
The boundaries are personal, right?
So they're personal first.
Yeah, but you frequently encounter
a situation where you have to.
Well, so, yeah.
Let's say, let's say...
Do you want to use the boss situation
or do you want to switch to another one?
Sure, I don't know.
I feel like it could be as innocuous
as like people who don't like coffee
versus people who like coffee.
Or it can be like...
Listeners, I feel attacked.
Boss and their colleagues.
Yeah, so...
Let me, let me do the boss one
because I'm not exactly sure
how to frame the coffee one for a second.
So, so like, let's, let's say,
let's say meeting a new boss or something.
Right. Like, first off,
you don't need to know anything
about their boundaries
because the beginning
is what are your boundaries?
So what is in this space?
What are you comfortable with
in this space?
So you walk in and you're like,
I know that I am comfortable
in a workplace environment
having these types of topics come up
18:01
and being, you know,
sort of this focused on work.
And if X, Y, or Z is to happen,
if something outside of those spaces
to happen, I won't, I won't tolerate it.
I will end the conversation, right?
Or I will simply leave the conversation
or I will choose to act in a certain way
that I, I make the decision to do.
The tricky part here, maybe,
is if you then,
if you and or the other person,
such as the boss, try to like engage on that
or perhaps escalate it in some cases,
that's when it might be easier
to start trying to throw like rules around.
And in work environments,
maybe rules are a way to be like,
I'm just, I'm drawing a hard line here, right?
Like, I don't want this happening.
So boss does something stupid,
says some misogynistic thing, for instance,
and you don't tolerate it.
So you just go, oh, okay, bye.
And like, you just leave, right?
You just leave the room.
The boss can, of course,
then decide how they want to deal with that.
They're probably, you know,
situation that they don't have.
That does not in that space
take into account the pressures
of social dynamics
and the work culture there
or the possible effects, right?
It's not about that.
It's just, at first,
what is your boundary and comfort
in particular spaces?
So both parties express
their initial boundary conditions.
Well, it sounded a lot like
quantum mechanics for a moment.
I mean, human relations
are probably more like quantum
than I'd like them to be.
So, yeah.
So that's the relational stuff.
Something that kind of
always made me
kind of wonder is
whose, you know, it's
whose responsibility is it
to communicate
your boundaries?
Because, of course,
you as a person with boundaries
are responsible for
to a certain extent.
But, like, if you're talking to
an alien,
they might just not have a concept
of, you know, time
and social power dynamics
and things like that.
And, like, you
maybe like in Japanese
you call it like
things like
you're just basically
punching into like pillows
and you're not kind of
you're trying hard
but nothing is happening.
And at that point
do you then decide,
OK, I've tried enough
and then leave?
Or are you in a situation
you can't leave?
So here's like maybe
a concrete example
a very specific condition
21:01
situation that I'm thinking about
that I've encountered.
So
I have
a local Hong Kong colleague
and
a foreigner colleague.
And
the foreigner colleague
is
vegetarian, gluten-free,
like that kind of lots of
food dietary restriction
comes with her.
And
as a result of that
she can hardly
eat
local food.
Or if she does, she needs to be
very picky
about
what to eat.
And
the local colleague, though,
like, who
wants to share
Hong Kong culture
and food scenes
are just like
questioning what
in order to recommend
a better place
that would fit her dietary
things.
She's asking lots of
questions like,
Oh, what about this?
What about that?
Right.
And then
it just so happened
that that series of questions
kind of went like,
No, I can't eat that.
No, I don't.
I prefer not to eat that.
No, I don't really eat that.
It was a lot of no's.
To the point that
the vegetarian girl
got frustrated.
She's like, it's not like
I want to be rude
to the local culture,
to the local food.
It's just that my stomach
does not agree.
So can we not talk
about this?
To that
kind of
boundary making
statement,
the local colleague
was
a little taken aback
because all
she was trying to do
was
share
good food
with her
and recommend
her places
that she can go.
And in order
to do that,
she was
asking her
series of questions.
And
the tension got a little
weird because
both people
don't have bad
intentions,
but
it got to the point
of uncomfortableness
for the
vegetarian girl
who
felt
guilty,
maybe all
on her own,
you know,
for not being able
to appreciate
local food
either because of
her preference
or her
bodily needs.
I thought
in that
situation,
I'm like,
is this where
they say,
okay, we've tried
hard enough to
negotiate our
boundaries,
let's drop it.
I kind of
not entertained,
but I was
curious
watching this
interaction.
Just like,
huh.
Both of them
are mature enough
to not get
personally offended
by this.
But like,
it did
come
a little close
to that
because
the person
with the dietary
restriction
felt like she's
been accused of
her pickiness
and
the person
with
the person
who was trying to
24:00
show her
food places
felt like
she was
accused for
almost being
interrogative.
And
all she had
was her good
intentions,
right?
I'm like,
hmm, this is
interesting,
but also I don't
really have any
conclusions to draw
from.
Yeah.
To the
listeners,
I started taking
notes
because
you've said
so many things
that I think
are really important.
I'm not sure
if I
can even
like, I think
wholly or
best engage
on them,
but I do
want to talk about
that.
So like the
anecdote,
I'm glad,
right, that there
was, it sounds
like, right, there
was a maturity
level enough to
be like, well,
I know I'm
recognizing these
sort of
feelings that
feel kind of
conflicted, like
I'm getting
feelings, but
I also, maybe
that other person
isn't trying to
do this.
It's just,
we're not
kind of
feeling
the same
wavelength.
We're not
quite understanding
each other
or our
intentions,
right?
They're coming
across in a
way that we
didn't expect
and they're
magnifying in a
way that isn't
positive feeling,
right?
It's creating
discomfort in the
space.
Yeah.
That just
happens,
right?
Like that is,
you've laid
out a great
example of
conversations and
thoughts and
experiences and
the ways that
they want to
make a relationship
and running into
somebody who has
their own and
over something
like this,
yeah, maybe
the, there's no
answer, right?
I think which is
what they found
is that like,
you don't, you
don't necessarily
have to stop
talking to each
other altogether
or something,
right?
Like you don't
have to go to an
extreme.
But they did
drop that
point.
Okay.
And that might
have been,
that was probably
a good, good
move.
If they were
to, like,
because I don't
think it was
going anywhere
to like,
because I feel
like the midpoint
will be, you
know, sort of
a soft landing
spot would have
been, oh,
like, how
about this
local food?
And they
were like, oh,
it actually ticks
all the boxes.
I should try
next time.
And that
might be the
soft landing
spot, right?
Sure.
Yeah.
But like,
they weren't
finding it
immediately.
And it was
like getting
frustrating for
both parties.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
It's, it's,
it's something
as simple as
that.
And, you
know, when
you're, I
think when
you're trying
to cross the
27:00
boundaries,
you have to
renegotiate your
boundaries,
because that's
one of the
ways to expand
your horizon,
one of the
ways to
introduce new
ideas to
your thought
process.
I feel like
that's critical
if you're
trying to
live in
the cultures
other than
your own,
or work
collaboratively
with people
with different
background and
expertise and
things like
that.
Yeah.
Because
something as
innocent as
food preference
can cause
something of
this level of
contention,
or a little
bit of,
you know,
not quite
contention,
but like a
little awkward
moment.
Yeah.
And imagine
this is
happening on
a scale of
like family
culture,
or like
religion,
or something
way more
rigid and
constrained in
somebody's
life.
That can be
hard.
And it's,
I don't
know, I don't
really have a
good answer
other than
like,
if you think
it's worth
negotiating,
right, if you
feel like you
have more to
gain from
trying to
get to the
bottom of
this negotiation
of boundaries,
hopefully in a
way that is
not too
burdening to
you and to
the other
person, you
should continue
negotiating and
hopefully it
doesn't have
like a rigid
timeline.
Sure.
Hopefully it
doesn't have that
kind of time
constraints, but
loosely if you
can just kind of
continue,
continue to
negotiate and
get sort of
in the happy
middle ground
where both of
both parties
involved understand
where they're
coming from
and have
a little
bit more
I don't know
like
compassion
feels weird,
but a
little bit
more understanding
of where and
why they're
coming from,
where they're
coming from.
And yeah.
I think
I think compassion
is the right
word.
I think perhaps
the reason it
feels weird is
due to the
way that people
maybe
there it's
it's due to
the fact that
we have
moved away
from feeling
or allowing
compassion to
exist in
anywhere, but
a very specific
set of
relationships.
So like
the word can
be a little
strange at
times, but
the point is
just trying
to care
perhaps and
and to
understand
this other
person.
It has a bit
of imagination
on like what
it feels like to
be on the
other person's
shoes.
Yeah.
Imagination is
Wow.
You really
30:00
don't think
that so
and so
is
doing
a certain
thing
because
you know for
a completely
wrong reason that
you like
misinterpret it
like sometimes
it's a lot more
obvious from the
outside.
And
yeah,
these are
kind of
frustration
that comes
when you're
trying to
have any
kind of any
depth of
relationship.
Yeah.
Whether it's
whether it's
super superficial
or you want
to, you know,
get to know
them more
holistically.
It's
definitely
it costs
some energy
to oh yeah
to to
understand and
exercise your
imagination.
Yeah.
But hopefully
it's it's
for a good
cause.
Yeah.
I think
there's energy
to expend
on learning
with you.
Like what is
your like sort
of inner
experience there
which probably
helps to inform
what type of
boundaries you
create because
if you can go
back and do
that you can
you can adapt
boundaries.
They can change.
That's true.
That's so important
too like to
to know what
your boundaries
are because
where do you
even begin
if you don't
really know what
you what your
boundaries are
and then we'll
find ways of
taking on other
people's boundaries
or rules.
And this is you
know maybe another
topic there but
yeah.
Yeah.
It sounds like
it also changes
like yeah
dependent wave
functions.
100 percent.
Yeah.
I that was
perfect.
That was
that was really
another thing
that I was
getting in
which is
sometimes
when even
when you're
looking at
a situation
where you're
kind of rubbing
against each
other and
not maybe
communicating
in the way
that you think
would be most
helpful
whatever right
there's a
judgment being
made there
but you
also have
this other
angle where
one situation
is not and
this is hard
very hard for
me as well
is not the
measurement.
It's not the
right scale
to be looking
at.
I guess maybe
we're just not
able to talk
about food
right now
right.
Like the
point is the
point is that
that's now
but often it
carries through
because we
need energy
to reengage
on the topic
and talk about
the thing
and it's
and it's
scary to
reopen it
because it
came with
like emotions
that were not
really comfortable
and you don't
know what to
do.
So yeah
at the same
time maybe if
they revisited
this conversation
like few years
33:00
down the road
yeah maybe
maybe
this
vegetarian girl
has stopped
being vegetarian
yeah I was
thinking of
like a whole
different
maybe maybe
maybe she
stops or
like it sounds
like that that's
like a health
thing right
like the
maybe the
person who
who can no
longer eat any
of this food
which would be very
sad right
but yeah
those are
that you're not
suddenly lactose
intolerant which
will be a sad
life to live
to me
those are
those are like
the factors we
can't take in
right so like
something might
change but at
least when it
comes to
change and
then it might
provide a new
space to
renegotiate
and revisit
that topic
and also
or maybe
maybe both
of their
conditions
for food
requirements
don't change
but they decide
that they want
to hang out
more
and they want
to explore
more food
options
in which case
you know
as
scary as
it might be
it might be
worth it to
revisit this
conversation
and really
try to get
to the
landing spot
and and
that again
could happen
over time
yeah can
happen
like these are
things that are
changeable
yes yes
they are
changeable
they are
malleable by
us and by
factors that are
not in our
control
and you have
lots of options
because as much
as like there can
be middle ground
there can also
be there could
be a decision
that if people
wanted to like
be together
but they decide
that they will
never eat food
together
yeah like
or at least
you know like and
it's like but so
we just we both
go and we order
or we make food
do whatever we
need to do
i have a friend
who has a similar
vibe it's just like
intercultural or
interracial couples
do this right
they will eat
at the same time
but they eat
different foods
different things
sure they don't
like each other's
food yeah
it works fine
yep you know
if both parties
agree that it is
okay to eat
different things
for dinner
and then then
it's fine
that's how they
renegotiated the
boundaries
rather than forcing
one person to
eat your food
or the other
person forcing to
eat their food
right
right the hard
part is just
i didn't think that
food would bring
such examples
of boundaries
but i feel like
you know food
food is an
important part
of our lives
it's it's one of
the most important
parts of our lives
but of course
both because it's
really important
for us but also
because it can
you know people
can have you know
strange relationships
with food and
with people
and so it's
yeah no the
36:00
i think that's a
that's a great
capturing of
this idea
right and it
takes it's
difficult and
takes energy
to investigate
these things
on the personal
level it's
difficult and
takes energy
to then both
communicate
this
engagement
with other
people and
to get to
that point
and it
happens on
a time
function right
it is even
if we sort
of think that
one decision
we've made
you know maybe
the fear is
that like one
decision that's
been made is
now the end
all be all
and that
relationship is
now only that
way especially
in sort of
the the
yeah so
food and
boundaries
i guess
yeah boundaries
are tricky
boundaries are
tricky
important
yeah and
worth engaging
with yeah
as we're you
know sitting here
saying that you
should do those
things of course
with the awareness
that there are
pressures to hold
up against a whole
bunch of other
things but yeah
i would i would
definitely sit
behind nudging
those pressures
to whatever
length that you
can and maybe
connecting with
others in the
way that you
know you sort
of find is
helpful for
growing and
seeing new things
and trying to
to be more
i don't know
yeah oh
one other
factor that
could change
again your
engagement level
with the
boundaries is
whether it's
defining your
own or
negotiating
but your
own bandwidth
to do that
might change
it might be
with age i hope
mine does
or it might
decrease depending
on what's what
else is happening
in your life
yeah so yeah
yeah like i
feel like that's
another point why
this negotiation
needs to happen
sort of constantly
you know different
levels of engagement
with respect to
time or
situation but
kind of always
have to happen
yeah yeah
it's it does
always have to
happen to some
extent right
yeah there's
something something
in that part
um but yeah
all right
i think that's it
i i'm curious
to hear what
other people
have talked
about with
kyokai um
probably kyokai
joken maybe
well actually
i bet
i don't know
because this
39:00
month
there are like
20 plus
people
whoa
participating
in this event
and i think
a lot of them
i have never
even heard
their
um
bangumi
ever
okay
so a lot of
a lot of
newcomers
new joiners
coming to
kyokai podcast
which is great
all right
um so i have
no clue what
people are talking
about
okay okay
this will be
we'll see
yeah
yep
yeah we'll see
yeah we'll see
all right
yeah all right
all right
bye
thanks for
listening
and find us
on x at
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