00:12
That was as far as she could do.
Letty, on the other hand...
Right, she's just like a regular person.
Should we change her name?
You know what I'm talking about, right?
From her perspective,
she has so many reasons
to not recognize her privilege.
She tried hard doing that
and eventually stopped being able
to see it at all.
She's got what she wanted.
This is it.
She's got what she wanted but
all of the decisions
that come from her
is like, does this
serve me?
It's never about
does this serve others?
That's why she's so confused
when other three main
characters decide to act
for the greater good or a bigger population.
She's like, but your opportunity!
Your space.
Your thing.
You worked hard to get to Oxford.
Why don't you
want to protect this?
That's her reaction because she cannot
comprehend that other people
can be motivated to
help others.
Maybe because nobody helped her
or at least that's how
she feels it, right?
She doesn't see it but
there were people who put the roof above her head.
There were people who helped her
get dressed and get her the food.
She doesn't consider those as help
or things that other people
did for her because it was given to her
without requesting and
she fails to recognize that
as a privilege.
I'm kind of extra disappointed in how
Leti ended up
because up until
pretty last moment
I felt like
she has the
03:01
opportunity to
un-Karen herself.
Of all the characters that
we've met in this book, she had the
most amount of exposure to
Victoire, Remy
and Robin who
come from a
completely different definition
of privilege than hers.
For them,
survival was a daily
task. They worried
about whether they have food
the next morning.
That was never
her case and she failed
to see what
that means to them.
She failed to see what being an
immigrant means to them.
Even though she had a lot
of emotional and intellectual
access to these
characters.
As much
access as she had, she was not
in a position
and I don't think this is even a judgment.
I think this is
she wasn't in a position of being
open-minded herself.
What made it worse
sorry to interrupt is
she thought she was being open-minded?
There's a challenge here in the way
that Leti's existence comes in
which is
you know how you said
there was a chance she could
pull it around. She was heading
in that direction. There was a feeling that
she's got so much connection
with these people. That should be
a pivot point.
The minute that Robin pointed out
early on that Leti was
crying about herself and not about
the dress or
the party or something like that.
I was like Leti
is going to be a shit character.
Not a bad character, but I was
like
it wasn't even, that's probably a little harsh.
I was like Leti is going to
have to either have a major
growth throughout this story
or she's going
to stab them in the back.
Because like in that
moment what I saw were things
that I have experienced with
other people in a space that it's like
this person
for probably totally
understandable if there was space
to really process these with them
reasons
is unable to as you said
really get
or really understand the other people
around them, really see outside of themselves
and that the situation
is always about them
and that type
of centralization focus
it drives a lot
of people. There's a push to get yourself
doing things in those spaces, right?
It made her move. That's true
and sort of that's
that was
the ethos of
06:01
America, right?
Oh yeah.
American dream. We should
do a whole other thing. I was just listening to
a nice podcast that was basically talking
about this today.
But like
it's basically
conditioning people
into worry about yourself
you know. Right. It's a
nasty like boiling of
all of those ideologies that come
together into somebody who
is in a position of being
like judged
and you know
repressed in some way but
not in the same way. Yeah, maybe because
I
like Leti. I'm a girl
maybe I gave her a little like cut
her a little more slack earlier on. Sure.
I could tell that she was a little bit more superficial
than the rest of them but
I was hoping like
I held out that hope a little longer
than you did because
she's smart you know.
She's smart and
when
she sort of like
helped cover up for the
death of Professor Lovell, I was
like ah maybe
you know maybe this is
like this is the moment she
woke up, right?
And it just like
ended up as a
self-serving act.
It was also a major
disappointment.
I can't say that I
lost hope because I wanted to
hope, right?
But you were more cynical than me.
What did I read
out of that? I think because of my personal
experience with this type
of
I don't want to say this type of person even
with somebody who
has experienced things that has brought
them to a personality and a psyche
that doesn't seem
to go outside of themselves
right that begins with
even the most extreme of situations
as I'm the bad
person, I'm the one that's
done a terrible, I'm so sad
and so upset and need
things which is
which doesn't at first come across
as like negative
but the more you sit with that
the worse it gets like
perceptually and the way it works
so that triggered me
and then I was hopeful. I agree.
We got to the point of Robin being
like fuck you dad
and then like you know exploding
his father on a ship which I
was like well right I remember
the author whose book I'm reading
now and
like this is like okay
intense but also
really well built up right
I could see the tension rising for this
I'm like she's helping
she's doing their thing little
bits of I think the way the story
laid in right these
unspoken word things right I'm getting this
sense this echo that she's
not really in it and I
09:01
could I'd have to go back and pin it down
but when she left
the room in the Hermes thing
she was like she was like I'm gonna take a walk
I was like that's it she's going to get the cops
that moment right
cause like
I just couldn't
I'm like looking at the book at this point
and I'm going why is
why is nobody stopping her
yeah you've not to mention
how often have you told
everybody in this room not to
like exit really or to mostly
go out the back door don't let
her the person who barely entered
your organization recently walk
out the front door unaccompanied
like I know story wise
it's to create like obviously
the tension but you're just
you aren't that stupid
the group of people here are not that dumb
but it's also that is the
naivety of you know
this kind of
grassroots operations
but like the older people there should have been
more cautious right I mean I know
like I know that Rami
and Victoire and Robin
that's true fine
they just thought
that you know a good idea
is enough to hold
people accountable
and dictate their psyche
they place over
emphasis value on good ideas
what was his name
Anthony
yes Anthony
had this right and it was a beautifully portrayed
version of this of that innocence
along with the foil who was
Robin's brother
Griffin who was definitely
like you need to act and there has to be
violence in order for there to be
beautiful foils I completely agree with you there on like
how he really played
the
we can speak to them with
reason and understanding
and we can connect with the people
both of all of these also
hold their own truths right
it's just that they're not always
exactly that
right yeah and
that's Anthony's privilege that
he failed to recognize
right like he
he may have struggled
in terms of class being a black
man coming from a slave background
coming
to the UK but
he had this natural
intellectual knack
for things and
and he like
never
was able to understand
that most of
UK at the point or England
yeah I guess at that point
don't
recognize the same kind of ideas as
he does and ideas alone
aren't enough people need to have
a real incentive
to act and
to
make a difference and
Griffin I think in a more visceral
way understood that
even though he might have been lesser
12:01
of an academic than Anthony
was and
not to say that Griffin's way was like
the most effective either
but no but that's
right one way does not make
it work it was kind of working
because they were this
mixed bag right
yeah and
I think Anthony like
this is another form of privilege
that makes you blind
to things it's not
just like the class and
the racial privileges
that something
visible like that that
can blind
people out of their privileges it's like
it's these other things like
intellectual
things like I
would like to
think I'm self aware enough but like I'm
sure I
often forget
that people
don't really
think as
deeply as I do
about certain things or
I assume that people
have put about the same
amount of thoughts that I did into a certain
thing and find out that they don't
they just go with vibes
you know
and things like
that I think I am certainly
not free from
this kind of blindness
coming from and
having spent a little too much
time in academic parts of the world
than most other
people of 30 years old age
and
that's something I need to be
aware of
and it's
funny it's really funny
and insidious how these
different layers of
privileges can blind you
to the world around you
and
things like that and
to a certain
extent much like translation
no amount of trying can
really cover the whole
but like that's why
we need people
other than us to
exist in our lives to
balance off, cover up each other's
blind spots and
sort of
you know
have a better collective vision
yeah
maybe this is
not the best but there is
both a collective vision type thing
and sort of this
like well-rounded understanding
of people
like in the different groups of people
from Abel
the guy who comes in from the
strikers the people who are on strike
yes okay
he was a surprisingly balanced character
yeah he comes in and he's like
I see what's happening I understand you I understand
them I know how these things
generally work because I sit within
this space of like
the constant pressure to get
15:01
things to change while
keeping people living their lives
like in a way that is
possible for what they have
and like this really grounded realism
that came with that
was a nice addition
to the rather chaotic
and utterly tragic end
he had way too short of an airtime
in the novel
the first time we see him is when he throws an egg at Victoire
which is what she brings up later
and he's like
different times
you know like it's just the way
situations change
he's like yes I did that he didn't just deflect
I was like I didn't do it
like no he owned up to it
but like
and you know
it's people like him
that has the most chance of
surviving I think
and just doing it
right like somebody who
he was no multilingual
the way Babel kids were
but he was in a way able to
hold two worlds at the same time
and
that is what
got him not to burn down
with the rest of them at the Babel
also
you know was able to
like negotiate
keep them protected
yeah he didn't
like he tried to minimize
the damage that the army could do
to his townspeople
and
most likely also survived
that attack himself
so
yeah thanks for reminding me
about Abel like yeah he was a good
one balanced
character
and he's like yeah I just you know
I see the world as it is
I do my best to sort of like
push where I can
but then I know that sometimes the pushing
doesn't work there right like
he just sort of
he might have even been running off of vibes
but his vibes were pretty well
versed you know
his vibes were
his vibes radar were
very well tuned yeah he had lots
of experiential like influence
into how those decisions were made
yeah I think this is like what
I hoped Griffin to
achieve the level
of balancedness
which he didn't have enough time
no he had a spontaneous
rival in a shootout in front of
the friggin prison gates which was
yeah dude who was
that guy just like
he appeared out of nowhere
and like boom boom and then like
I was just like yeah is this how you kill
off the character
it's one way to do it that's for sure
but like
because I read it in such a compressed
time I
am aware of the vaguest sensations
because the guy that he murdered was
essentially whatever his name
one of the top like the top
you know translator right yeah he was
the nemesis because
18:01
there was also a hint that there was a girl involved
and there was yes
also very cheap yeah and there
was a bit of like there was a bit of like
oh you know Griffin and then you know they split
because he went Hermes and he went into
you know Babel's system and it was like
I see what was happening here
and I know there had to be something there
and you already have a lot happening in the story
so like I get it
but it let's recognize at the same
time that it did sort of just
end like
we also never read that note
by the way we never read the note
you know what I realized when you were saying
this is that I love
the world RF
Kwan creates
I am not
I don't think the characters
are
thought out or developed enough
to inhabit in this
really rich world that she
creates for herself like the characters
seem
like somebody I've seen before in some other
places most of them
okay I wouldn't go
as far as to say it looks like a caricature
but it is like a type
it's
like a type that
I have seen and for the
complexity of the world that she
created to set this story
I wanted a
character that is just as complex
heck I even
had a lot more hope for Professor Lovell
because like I thought
he as a one Mandarin
speaker in Babel like I
thought he can have
like and this like a
whole lot of backstory that we didn't really get
too much time on in the novel
I thought he
had a little bit more
I thought he's going to show a bit more
complexity than being this
like cold
hearted brooding
fake dad
hmm
like I just feel like
it's a little bit one dimensional
their characters
okay yeah I think that's
I
want to be careful with this because
I think one dimensional feels
right in that instance because
what you're pointing out is that
there isn't necessarily a growth track
for the character or like
a conflict of
interest within themselves
that's so that
is an interesting one I think
Lovell doesn't have that
because he's
a narcissist
and or
you describe him in one word
he's a narcissist I feel like he could
have been so much more than a narcissist
well
yes I wonder if
yes the answer is he could have been
more and he could have
had internal conflict
but if you have somebody with internal
conflict it's less
likely that they would do the shit that he did
ah
it's much
21:00
harder it's much
harder to go through the idea of
like let's be honest
right Lovell goes in
knocks up somebody within
the Cantonese sort of you know area
says I'll give you money
pass down my good genes
I'll give you money and do things
he does this more than once
so mind you
that doesn't mean it's only twice
right like he's
probably got backups
there could be another Robbins and Griffiths
out there that we didn't reach
like what that is to me
the way that that's been set up
means that he has like
that is
so immensely
mechanical
plotting like sort of
that version of that
is a character that doesn't hold
emotional internal conflict
but with that being
said it doesn't mean the character is
therefore more complex but it is
a character playing this role
do I think it would
have been more interesting if the character could
have had a growth arc yeah it would have
been interesting to see
or like is he growing
and then nah he's not
that's a bit more complex
at most there were some flashes
I think of like you know
this awkwardness that would
appear which probably doesn't
necessarily make him
it means that there's like
you could perhaps
imagine more humanness you might imagine
that it's simply
like a different intellectual
spectrum
space but like the stuff that
was actually done puts it in
a real dark spot
even in the context
of that world maybe
maybe he doesn't deserve multidimensional portrayal
but I think you nail some of the other characters
with it though yeah
a lot of other characters
kind of existed to serve
a singular purpose
in the book and that was it
well you see one of Robin's privileges
is that everybody served a purpose for his story
so
I guess
sorry that was obviously a joke
in that space but it actually
I think it gets to what you're getting at
which is that these
characters played a role but they
just played the role and
I keep using growth but I know that's maybe
not exactly what you're looking at but like
if there was no trajectory for the
character like Leti
she just
was that way
and then was that way
it might have been hinted a change could occur
but nothing actually changed
like
it's hard for me to imagine
to be in that kind of
very
richly built world
and just
have a singular linear
trajectory to your
demise
yeah I mean Robin's
24:00
Robin actually has the most
dimension. Robin is like the only guy who kind of
yeah it's a very
multi like from the main character
yeah the problem is the other characters
didn't right
like everyone else. Raimi was a martyr
Victoire was a survivor
Leti was out for herself
that was
pretty much it right like that's what they did
pretty much it and then
and then like some
Oxford assholes were there to show
the Oxfordiness of it all
and
and the Hermes Society
was like the resistance
and
the professors
were like different kinds of evil
and I was
so much more interested in like
Robin maybe
joining up with Hermes
in like the first iteration almost
and just shattering the idea of Babel
like being the place the story
was going to be held
I'm mixed on that opinion
because I like some of the stuff that was
like introduced world-wise
in Babel and like a little bit
of the character relationship
because there were relationships
between the characters but there weren't like
again there wasn't
dimension right to some of the other characters
but if they had like just
gone with Hermes and
had these like
almost internal conflicts
in the group with each other
like as this was occurring
and like that type of
conflict and early and
like this tension
would have been so much more maybe
real to some extent even if they'd
all been a part of Hermes
and like we're still trying to go to Babel for a while
and then like
there might have been more room for that
but in this other way
I think it emphasized the
the school's placement
right the like comfort that existed
in the school it let you sit in the comfort
a little while longer before
pulling an
RF Kuang which is absolutely
shattering the world
yeah
yeah I don't know like
because I love the world
that she created so
much and I think it's very interesting
it's so expansive
but
like I think
compared to the
richness of that
world I felt the characters
a little bit bland
I think there's certainly an argument for that
yeah
yeah
but nonetheless
I'm glad I read this book
it definitely
it definitely made me
think
and
entertain lots of thoughts
as we speak for like nearly two hours all together
in like part one part two probably
yeah I did just look at the timing on this recording
but
you want a small tidbit before we
27:00
maybe I think we're going to the closer here
sure sure sure
make it three hours
no no no
did you also catch that
professor what's his face
the one whose name starts with a P
that I still can't remember
yeah
Pepper?
Peter Piper Peck to Peck of Pickle Peppers
or something
something like that
oh yeah
regardless did you know that he stole
Anthony's discovery
yeah
I wanted to recognize that with somebody else
because I was like I looked at it
and the book does not acknowledge it
right like it just moves
on and I'm like
damn
like he didn't like that was the thing
right it's how he was introduced he was like
this thing he's going to be able to like add it to the
list of you know active translation
things and stuff I can't for the life of me
remember what it was at this point but
yeah and then they just
he was working on a specific magic
match pair and then they just
he disappears because he dies
quote unquote and you know joins Hermes
but like just
co-ops it right just takes it on
it's like this is mine now
another representation of the whole like power
you know experience and like
well we deserve it and I also got the
name ironically
his name is Professor Playfair
right how could I have forgotten
that that's so that
itself is like a little minor but
also kind of nice tidbit to
recap on that
a person who's not he totally
isn't playing fair right it's all about getting
the upper edge on that and he
certainly didn't
yeah
yeah but it was good it was worth it
as you said yeah it was good read
I am curious
how the Japanese translation is going to come
out yeah which is coming out in like a week
or something yeah that's true
and
yeah I would
recommend this to friends
yeah and then see what like
I would love to hear what they think
about especially want to hear
what my bilingual
trilingual multilingual friends
think about
because
yeah I mean we all
kind of you know live in
a different degree of
multilingual ness
and I know
very few people
who share the
similar kind of multilingual
ness that I do
but I do know a few so
like I wanna I want to
hear their opinions about
it and how
I wonder
if it's gonna be as popular as
it was in English in Japanese
because yeah don't know
colonialism
from
an Asian perspective
is an interesting topic
30:01
to wrestle
the underlying
white supremacy
thoughts that never
really went away
since the post war
and
yeah I always
feel like Japanese
society culture
has this like lingering
leftover
white supremacy that we need
deal with
that's been internalized
in this country
I imagine just the
statement of white supremacy based
thing if any of that is remaining
it should probably be dealt with
like yeah
wherever it is
recognize it
many people are
even aware
that's the insidious
nature of these like sort of
long running
sort of implied
difficult to
grasp type feelings
and
experiences right if it's disconnected
from you by more than one or two degrees
you're going to struggle
right you need assistance right
and sort of picking those things out
yes and that's
when my battery
died of my headphone
so that really has to end
let's let it end then
at us
bye
that's it for the show today thanks for listening
and find us on x
at Eigo de Science
that is E-I-G-O-D-E
S-C-I-E-N-C
see you next time
