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【にゃにゃにゃラジオ】
Hi everyone, this is にゃにゃにゃラジオ.
I am your host, Yuzu. I am a junior web developer...
a what?
I'm a software developer, and this podcast is to show you the engineering world, what it looks like, and what it's like to be an engineer.
So, today I have a guest, an amazing guest, Caitlin.
Hi everyone!
Can you introduce yourself, maybe?
Sure thing. I'm Caitlin, I'm a computer scientist from New Zealand, and I'm researching computer science education in primary schools.
Right, right, right.
Awesome.
All that stuff.
All that stuff.
Okay, great. So yeah, we're now in Seoul to attend the Women Techmakers Scholarship Retreat.
So yeah, that scholarship is for female students in the computer science field.
Who've shown leadership in getting more women into the field.
Yeah, exactly. To empower more women to get into the field.
And I was a scholar last year, and Caitlin was a scholar from...
2014.
Right, right, three years ago. And we're like all stars, we're coming back to the scholars again.
It's so exciting, coming back.
I know, it's so exciting. So we did a panel yesterday, as former scholars, what we have been doing after we got a scholarship.
So that's why we are here, and we met like two days ago, and we got along, so that's why we're recording together today.
It's so exciting. And now I have to visit Japan, and you have to visit New Zealand.
You should, you should, and I should too.
So, I did an activity yesterday in the retreat actually, with other scholars, and there was this one I kind of want to do with you.
So, pick three adjectives to describe each other.
Like, describe you?
Yeah, so I'll pick yours, and you pick mine.
Oh, that sounds awesome. And really...
Who's going first?
I wanna go first.
Okay.
Caitlin is...
Inspirational.
I'm like, I have like five options, and now I'm like picking three.
Well, I feel like now, I'm gonna, I wanna say inspirational as well.
Okay, inspirational, funny, quirky.
Oh, I like those. I like those a lot.
I wanna use inspirational as well, but I need to think of a different one now.
Yeah, you're making sweet goose, I think.
Think of synonyms.
I should have better, I should have like more adjectives I can choose from.
And better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I wanna say really, really fun, and really like, I'm gonna get too many now.
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Really motivated.
Oh yeah.
And, this is hard.
I know, it's hard, it's fun.
No, I'm gonna do inspiring, and if I think of a better one later, I'm gonna come back.
I wanted to add intellectual too, though.
Like, not many people do PhD, you know.
I feel slightly, like, it's a lot of admin work, a lot of the time, but it is really fun doing the research.
Yeah, tell me about it.
So, Caitlin is currently doing, in New Zealand you're doing a PhD, right?
In computer science education.
Yes.
Yeah, can you tell me more about it?
Like, what your lifestyle looks like, and what your research is about?
So, PhD lifestyle is quite variable.
You go through periods of really intense work, and really like, being really excited about your research,
and it's really exciting, and you wanna write papers, and then you go through periods where you're sort of like,
I have no idea what I'm doing.
Huh, interesting.
But it's kind of, it's quite, that's when you have like good supervisors to help you.
But the research, I come from a computer science background, so I did my degree,
and came into education afterwards, and like, I really like teaching, but I've never done any education training.
So, I've been working heaps with primary school teachers who actually know what they're doing when they're teaching this stuff.
Yeah, it's really interesting, like, computer science education is like, now it's a really important topic,
but I've never heard of the research, you know?
Like, I didn't even know the research really existed, so.
It's really, yeah, great to know.
Yeah, oh, I'm so glad that more people are hearing about it.
Yeah.
It's really interesting, because I would say, maybe at the beginning of my PhD,
maybe a few years before that, it was, there was hardly any.
Right.
It was really not much happening.
Right, right, right.
But now there's so much.
Oh yeah?
It's really exploded, like, particularly researching this thing called computational thinking.
So at first I was like, yay, I'm doing a really new area, and now heaps of people are doing it.
But that's really good.
But you're like a frontier, you know?
Oh!
I like to hope so.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what exactly is computational thinking?
Is it like thinking like a computer?
Oh, that's, oh, good question.
A lot of people, thinking like a computer is kind of the first thing people think, but it's slightly different.
Right.
A really short description would be thinking like a computer scientist, but it's not quite.
We say it's a collection of different problem-solving skills,
and they're the kind of problem-solving skills that help you create solutions that are algorithms or processes
so that your solutions can be implemented on computers.
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Interesting.
Yeah, so it's kind of about learning how you can use computers to create cool stuff.
Gotcha.
If that makes sense.
So the problem-setting, so what kind of problems are the material?
Is it going to be a programming problem?
There is programming in it, so programming we find is one of the really good ways to teach it.
Not just programming.
You need other stuff, but programming is really good for students.
There's a range of skills we kind of divide into computational thinking,
and one of them is algorithmic thinking, which programming is so good for
because you have to learn to be sequential and learn those strategies.
And then there's logic, which, again, you've got to think logically for programming,
and debugging is a huge part of that.
And then there's elements called abstraction, so kind of being able to take in generalization,
so it's taking a solution to a problem and kind of making it more abstract,
so hiding some of the details, so then you can create a general version that solves other similar problems.
Gotcha.
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Oh my gosh, I really love your approach.
I mean, I started to learn computer science pretty late in my life, like three years ago, actually.
After that, I feel like my thinking has changed so much, but I couldn't really put that into words.
It's really hard to describe what has changed, but now I feel like you described it.
Oh, yay!
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's really awesome to hear because I've been studying computational thinking for a year and a half,
and I still struggle to just explain it.
But yeah, it's so many people you talk to who are computer scientists or software engineers,
or generally people who have just done quite a bit of programming in some computer science.
Even though you can't describe it, they get what you mean.
They're like, oh, I think like that.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's a shift.
Exactly.
Yeah, I'm so excited that you're doing your research into this.
It's so interesting, and one of the best moments I've had was the first teacher I started working with.
It was great because she was comfortable using technology, so she wasn't too scared,
but she was like, oh, I can never do computer science or programming.
I'll learn a little bit so I can teach it, but I'm never going to really understand it.
And when I talked to her about six months ago, so like three years after she started teaching it,
she said, oh, so you've been talking about this computational thinking and the programming thinking style.
And I always kind of thought, I said the same thing, and I thought it was just talk, but now I can do it.
And she was like, I'm a computational thinker now.
Whoa, that's awesome.
It was so cool.
That sounds awesome.
Oh, my gosh.
Oh, that was one of the best moments.
Yeah.
So I love how you extracted kind of like a social aspect of computer science.
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Yeah, I feel like computer science is affecting my social life or life as well, like my life attitudes.
So you're extracting that element from computer science.
That's awesome.
I can't claim all the credit for abstracting it at all.
There's quite a lot of people working on the computer science, but the stuff we've been doing in schools, we see that.
And I feel exactly the same way.
I approach problems in general in my whole life with that kind of mindset.
Yeah.
Talking to other computer scientists, it's really funny because they do as well.
Yeah, it's so funny.
And you're doing this CS, I don't know, computer science, I don't know, like it's based on the same kind of theory or mindset, right?
Yes, exactly.
When it was first created about 25 years ago, it was kind of before the idea of computational thinking was around.
So it was much more about...
25 years ago, that's a while ago.
Isn't it crazy?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So computer science unplugged is an activity or movement to teach computer science mainly for kids, but not only for kids, without computers.
So without using computers, teach computer science.
Exactly.
That's the idea, right?
Exactly.
And I really like that you described it as a movement, because that's so true.
It's kind of spread around the world.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I feel.
We don't own it.
My supervisor was kind of the first person who came up with it.
That's crazy.
I know, right?
And I'm like, how do I work with this famous person?
But it's really spread, and people create their own versions, and it's really cool.
But now that we're looking at it 25 years down the track, we're like, this teaches computational thinking, which is really exciting.
You see those elements coming through, which is fantastic, because they weren't designed with that intention.
We've reworked them now to try and emphasize that, but it's really exciting to be like, oh, this existed even then.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
This is something that people kind of discovered.
Most of the teachers we're working with are ones who were already comfortable with using computers.
Not all of them.
Some of them were still scared of technology and kind of like, oh, computers.
But most of them were into it, and they were really determined to learn this stuff.
To be clear, you're teaching not only kids, but also teachers.
So now you're focusing on teachers to teach computer science on blogs.
Yes.
So it's like a meta thing going on.
Yeah.
It's kind of complicated, but yeah, go ahead.
We're trying to teach the teachers to teach.
Right.
But now we're trying to move, this is more what I'll look at.
Well, what the rest of my team is looking at, I'm still focusing on teaching teachers and the kids.
Teaching teachers.
Yeah, because that's going to be my research.
But the rest of our team, who don't have to write PhDs, now they're looking at teaching teachers
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so that they can teach other teachers to teach it.
Another level.
Yes.
Another level in training.
It's so good.
It's funny.
It's so funny.
But our teachers that I work with are really motivated and they're kind of scared,
but they're really like, yeah, I want to learn.
But there's so many teachers across New Zealand and across a lot of the world
who've never seen this and are really scared of it or really like, I don't want to do this.
Oh.
Yeah.
So getting them feeling comfortable with it and it's going to be a big challenge.
How do you even make them want to learn that then?
Like, how do you pull them into that field?
It's really, that's a really like big problem people are facing.
Yeah, it sounds like so.
Yeah.
So one of the things I did when I recently interviewed a bunch of the teachers was I asked them,
what do you think, because we're introducing it to the full New Zealand curriculum next year,
and I was like, well, when that happens, what impact do you think that might have?
And quite a few of them were talking about some of the older teachers and saying like,
we think a lot of them are going to quit because they're going to be too scared of doing this.
You mean teachers?
Yeah.
They're scared.
Aw.
It's sad.
Yeah, which is really frustrating.
Or there'll be like quite a lot of resistance or people, like when it's something new,
you expect people to question it.
That's true.
Yeah, but there is.
That's true in general.
Yeah.
So it's going to, up until now, it's been very much like, oh, come do it.
It's exciting.
And some people are like, yeah, I'll do that.
And others are just like, no, not listening.
But now they're kind of forced to do it.
But like, if you look at the actual activities that you do, it's not like scary at all.
Can you name some of the activities that you actually do?
Oh, yeah, sure.
So yesterday, we did the paper plane activity.
Oh, I love that activity.
Yeah.
So we did this activity, which it's not an official Unplugged activity yet.
Well, official on our website, but it's one that other groups of people do.
But I want to put it on our website.
You should.
Oh, it was so much fun.
It was so much fun.
And also, it was really, it introduced a lot of like important aspects of computer science too.
Like parallelism.
I can't say that word.
Parallelism.
Parallelization.
Parallelization.
Parallelization.
Parallelization.
Parallel processing.
Parallel processing.
Yeah, that's it.
And also agile development.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And oh, when I first got taught that activity, I was like, this is genius, but I'm so glad
I came across and did it.
Yeah.
So the paper planes activity is software engineering Unplugged.
So it's like working in teams and having to learn to be agile and satisfy requirements
and also not overcomplicate things.
But some of my other favorite activities is teaching binary numbers where you get them
to like flip big cards.
Oh yeah, that was fun too.
Oh, it was so much fun.
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And oh, there's another one that I really like, which is doing, learning binary search and
hash tables.
Wow, that's advanced.
Yes.
I know, right?
How can children learn that?
They learn it with pirates and pirate chests.
Oh.
Yeah.
And they have to look for like the pirate gold.
That sounds genius.
Oh, I love it.
Wow.
Yeah, but one of the biggest things we like to focus on is we don't go into class and
be like, today we're going to teach you binary search and hash tables.
We go on and like, today we're going to learn about, today we're going to do a pirates game.
Yeah.
Today we're going to do magic tricks.
And you, you never tell kids the answers.
You never tell them this is how it works.
You kind of, you prompt them to figure it out.
Like with the binary numbers, when it's like, you give them a card that says one on it.
And you're like, what do you think the next one says?
And they all say two.
And then you go, what do you think the next one is?
And they all say three.
And you're like, haha, it's a four.
Yeah.
And they have to figure out the pattern.
Right.
Yeah.
I remember when you ran the workshop.
Oh, thank you.
You were such an expert.
You didn't give them an answer.
And you just like, make them say, yeah.
Yeah.
It's this, I really like that philosophy because it makes people feel like, empowered.
They're like, oh, I can figure it out.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Because computer science is such a like, difficult field.
Or like, people see it as like, a difficult field.
Yeah.
People just like, get like, scared.
But if they can understand it by themselves, that would be really encouraging.
Oh, yeah.
And it's so true that people see it as this really difficult field.
I find it really similar to when people are like, oh, I just can't do maths.
But so often it's because they like, had a bad experience.
Or they had a parent who was like, oh, I can't do maths.
And they're like, oh, okay.
I guess it's okay.
And I probably can't do it either.
Right.
Whereas they, it's not that they can't do it.
It's just that like, they haven't.
They just think they can.
Yeah.
And they put up a wall.
Right.
Mental wall.
Yes.
Exactly.
But it's so bad because so many of the primary school teachers feel like that too.
Oh.
Yeah.
Teachers?
Yeah.
Which is.
It's quite.
I'm not sure.
I've got some theories about why it's more common with primary teachers.
And part of it's, in New Zealand, there's kind of like, we have the gender problem in computer
science.
We have a massive gender problem in teaching.
Particularly primary school.
Where about 90% of teachers are women.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Huh.
I don't.
I wonder if it's true for Japanese schools too.
Yeah.
It'd be interesting to find out.
I don't think the number is that high though.
Yeah.
That is like, me kind of guessing.
But.
Still, still.
Yeah.
Particularly primary school.
Wow.
And I mean, there's heaps of reasons.
But.
And then that also kind of ties into like, societal pressures that, and societal expectations
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that like, women aren't as good at math.
Means a lot of those teachers have kind of come from that background of like, oh, I can't
do maths.
And if your teacher has that attitude, it kind of rubs off on the kids.
That's true.
Yeah.
So.
But with the computer science unplugged and some of the programming, teachers have been
like, oh, then maths is getting better?
And I'm like, yes.
I'm like, we're sneakily teaching the maths.
Oh my gosh.
You're like, making such a great social impact.
Oh, thank you.
Oh my gosh.
I'm so inspired now.
Oh, thank you.
I wanted to do something like that too.
Oh, you should.
It's so much fun.
Yeah, I should.
And we want this to happen everywhere.
Right, right, right.
That's the idea, right?
It's like a movement.
Yeah.
I definitely want to do it too.
So yeah.
Talking about you, like.
Hey.
You decided to do a computational thinking research, or like, computer science education
research, like, over computer science itself.
Yeah.
So what was your like, decision like?
Like, why did you choose that education side of computer science?
Oh, it was interesting.
At first, it was kind of just, I just happened to fall into it.
When I did my honours year, I needed a project.
And I originally wanted to do machine learning.
And I talked to the supervisor.
And he was like, oh, cool.
Like, I have this project.
And then I went to talk to him again two weeks later.
And he was like, oh no, I gave it away.
I can't give you the project.
And I was like, oh.
But I was doing a computer science education course that semester.
So I was like, oh, I'll go talk to the guy that runs that.
So you just happened to be in it.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And I went and talked to him.
And I was like, oh my god, I love this.
And I really enjoyed it.
And I could see the impact.
So it was a really hard choice, though, because.
And it was a hard choice because it tied into my imposter syndrome stuff.
Like, there's a real big stereotype around, like, with there being heaps of women in teaching.
Like, oh, it's the woman's career.
Right, right.
And so I kind of had that complex, like, oh, I don't want to do it.
Because then people will think I'm just doing it because I'm not good enough at computer science.
Oh, no.
Which was so upsetting.
But I was like.
Yeah, I can totally see people say that.
Yeah.
It sucks.
And it's like, even if they're not saying it to your face, I just had this idea in my head.
Right.
That people would think that.
But.
And every now and then, I struggle with that now.
But I don't generally because I decided to keep going with the education stuff.
Because I was enjoying it.
And I was like, oh, well, I've enjoyed doing some research and writing about it.
And I think this is important.
So.
Oh, and my supervisor's really cool.
So I'll stay and try and do more and see what it's like.
Right, right, right.
And most of the time, I love it.
Every now and then, I get kind of like, oh, I'm not sure.
But also, I mean, I'm kind of reassured in the sense that now I feel like my understanding of the fundamentals of computer science is so rock solid.
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Even though I'm really out of practice with programming.
We are sick.
And also, there's a lot of teachers in my family.
And it's kind of, I have always enjoyed teaching.
Like, I kind of tutored my friends at school sometimes.
I did some tutoring at uni and some lecturing.
And it was just really fun.
I see.
So you're kind of familiar with the teaching field.
Yes, sort of.
I see, I see.
I've kind of like, learnt by trying it.
Oh, I see, I see.
But also, my supervisor, Tim Bell, has been very good at giving me feedback on it.
And being like, hey, I find this works well and this doesn't.
That sounds like a great environment to be in.
Yeah, it's a really supportive, our research group is incredibly supportive.
I see.
Yeah, I think it's really, how can I say, like really given to focus on education.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I want to do something about education too.
But at the same time, I want to invest in myself as well.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Like, as a software engineer.
So like, I feel, I really admire you, like what you're doing.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, you're making a big impact to the world.
Well, but you'll be making a huge impact as well, working on the kind of products you'll be doing.
Yeah, that's true.
You're impacting millions of people with that as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That makes me feel good too.
And there's another role, like working on your career at the same time.
Because that's important too.
And maybe the more you work on it, the more good you can do in the future.
Yeah, that's true.
It's crazy how, it's one of the differences that we really see with software and technology.
It's, you can impact so many people.
Yeah, exactly.
I think that's the core beauty of engineering, you know.
Like, we couldn't do it back then, but now we can impact billions of people in a minute.
That's so beautiful, you know.
Yeah.
And it is beautiful, and it's just the fact that you can improve people's lives.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, I do see the beauty in it, and that's why I am in the software engineering field.
But at the same time, I sometimes feel like, only sometimes, but I sometimes feel kind of powerless in a way.
Like, when I'm, especially when I'm working on a huge project, like, I do get to decide things.
But at the same time, it's, like, a really tiny portion of the project.
So, like, even though I can, I try to be creative, is it creative?
So that's the question I constantly have to myself.
Although, like, I try to think that I am contributing to the world.
But, yeah, that's, like, the thing I think about all the time.
I think I know what you mean.
In terms of, like, sometimes, like, the technology, or just the big companies in general, yours, sometimes you feel like a small cog in a big machine.
24:09
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, which is, and it's interesting because I sometimes feel a bit like that in research, but not in the same way.
Sometimes it's more kind of like, there are people out there doing so much more than me.
But every, like, you can't create big technology that impacts millions of people by yourself.
Right, exactly, exactly.
Very few people can do that.
And generally, at some stage, they need to hire more people to work with them.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And having each person's, like, separate viewpoint improves it in some way.
Like, even if it's, even if each person is kind of making small contributions, it's still going to be changing it and molding the project.
But at the same time, sometimes, I guess that's why so many people go off and do startups.
Yeah, exactly, because you have more control.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, that makes sense.
But I guess, my, yeah, at one time, like, one of my friends who is not in tech, like, she asked me, like,
people say that, like, you can use your creativity in computer science field. Is that true?
And I was like, yeah, kind of.
But I was, like, completely, I was not completely sure about, like, if I'm being creative in the workplace.
I guess to some extent, but not to the extent of, like, artists or anything.
Yeah, it's interesting, because it's something I struggled with in my head.
Because I, like, doing creativity in terms of, like, art and stuff is something I really love as well.
Although I haven't really, I need to put aside more time for it, because it makes me happy.
Yeah, me too, me too.
I love art.
Like, what kind of art do you do?
I write.
Yeah, oh, cool.
I used to do painting all the time, and I just don't anymore.
I really need to start doing it again.
But, yeah, I used to kind of be like, oh, no, there is heaps of creativity in computer science.
Like, you have to come up with ideas for a lot of stuff.
But sometimes I think there is, either there's not as much, or it's a different kind of creativity in a sense.
Yeah, I would say so.
Is it more problem solving?
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
But I guess sometimes you have to come up with really, like, innovative solutions.
That's true, that's true.
Yeah, so I feel like, so when you're creating art, you're, like, creating this, like, beauty from scratch, right?
But when I'm working on a huge project, I'm working on a small portion of it.
I'm more, like, polishing the beauty, the existing beauty, kind of.
I see what you mean.
Yeah, in a creative way, hopefully.
Yeah.
I wonder if you were starting, like, if you were on a team, even if it was a big one, starting a brand new project.
That's possible.
If it would feel different.
Yeah, that's possible.
Yeah.
Maybe I'm, like, just, I just started working, so maybe that will change.
Yeah.
Maybe.
And maybe it's, like, you, because some people, I'm sure, don't want to get to that point of doing the really, like, innovative creative.
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They're very happy just kind of contributing in those ways.
Yeah.
And, but if you're interested in that, like, I think one of the other women here was talking about how she was, like, the project lead for her, or the tech lead for her project.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So she kind of has a lot more control over where it goes.
Yeah.
And ideas for it.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I want to reach that point.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And not many people have the ability to do that.
That's true.
But also, like, having that other creativity side, like, whole, I shouldn't swear, that must make such a difference in how you can approach the work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what the diversity is all about, right?
Like, people bringing new perspectives to the world.
Yeah.
And there's, there are so many connections between them.
Actually, there was another scholar, one of the women tech makers who's on this retreat, who was showing me yesterday some of the programming she shows art students at her uni about how you can create art with programming.
I forgot about that.
It's really cool.
That's awesome.
And then there's heaps of different stuff, like doing e-textiles, where you're making clothing or just other kinds of, like, fabric stuff, which is also has technology integrated into it.
And people create art using the technology.
That would be awesome.
Yeah.
Well, they're actually thinking, but a lot of the bits where you kind of see some computer science, where you see some of the concepts, and you're like, oh, that's so beautiful, and, like, some of it is just beautiful, but it's already there, I guess?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's like discovering the beauty instead of, like, creating itself.
Oh, I never thought about that before.
So, yeah, in that sense, I sometimes feel a little bit powerless, like, compared to when I'm writing, you know?
Where you have complete control over it.
Yeah, exactly.
But at the same time, like, even if I write a, like, masterpiece, I can only deliver it to, like, a certain number of people, whereas I can contribute to, like, billions of people all the time with computer science.
Yeah.
So that's, like, a trade-off, you know?
And I guess it's also interesting, because even if the writing is accessing much fewer people, it's probably still having a strong impact on them.
Yeah, exactly!
Yeah!
It could change people's lives.
Exactly!
Yeah.
Like, there are some books you read, or even just some articles, and it just changes the way you approach the work.
Yeah, exactly!
Or you feel connected.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes!
Oh, I agree so much. I wish I was better at creative writing.
Like, at school I was really into it, and now I'm like, nah.
I'm really interested in your writing.
Most of the time I just write when I'm, like, in a really bad mood and need to vent.
Stress out.
So it's very, like, angry.
That'd be funny.
Oh, it's so good.
Yeah, so I'm attracted to that, like, creative field, too.
30:00
So, yeah, I'm still, like, figuring out, like, how to deal with those, like...
Yeah!
When you're writing, is it non-fiction or fiction?
Fiction, yeah.
Totally fiction.
Cool!
Based on the real world, I write fictions, yeah.
That's so awesome.
Yeah, I know.
I feel like we have so much in common, actually.
I know, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is so wonderful.
We were talking yesterday about mental health issues.
Yeah!
That's, like, one of my biggest interests.
And yours, too.
Oh, I'm so interested.
I want to do more in that field.
Me, too!
But, like, I was...
Oh, my gosh.
In Japan, it's, like, so suppressive.
Yeah!
Yeah, like, you can't...
It's not really, like, seen as a good thing to talk about mental health issues out there.
Yeah!
So, like, it's really hard to, like, even discuss it.
Yeah.
It's one of those things that...
I was really, really excited when a couple of other people kind of talked about it the other day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Like, you!
I was like, oh, you, too!
I know!
I was so, like...
Oh, yay!
It's so awesome that someone else is like, I'm going to talk about this.
Yeah, I know, right?
I was so excited.
It feels so good.
But, like, it's...
It's also hard, though, because sometimes...
Yeah.
There's always that concern that someone there is going to judge.
Like, make a joke about you.
Yeah.
Or, like, judge you.
Which, like, I've had at uni, because, like, I have bipolar type 2.
And I just remember, this was before I was diagnosed, but it was when I was diagnosed with depression.
And I was talking to some other tutors.
And we had been, like, informed that...
From student services, like, oh, by the way, like, one of the students in your class has bipolar.
So, just, like, we get told when they have anything that could have a significant impact.
Okay.
With the student's consent, of course.
And the other tutors were like, oh, what does that mean?
That some days they're just going to be, like, laughing and happy and jumping around the lab.
And some days they'll be sad.
And we're laughing about it.
And I was just, like, sitting...
Oh, my gosh!
That makes me so angry.
That makes me so angry, too.
Yeah, I was diagnosed as...
Okay.
I'm trying to...
I was trying to remember the English name of it, but I just can't.
But it's...
I don't know, like, the separation?
Dissociation?
I guess that's it.
Like, you...
Dissociative.
You're there, but you're not actually there.
Yes!
Yes!
That's, like...
Oh, my God!
Yeah, I have that sometimes.
They call it sometimes, like, you get dissociation.
Personalization?
Oh, yeah, yeah!
That one!
That one I was studying for.
Yeah, yeah.
The personalization.
It's so...
I only get it...
I get it sometimes when I have anxiety, or sometimes when I'm what you call hypermanic.
Which is kind of like...
Manic, like...
Bipolar 1 is you get really depressed, and you get really manic.
Which is, like...
Yeah.
Really, like...
Like, hyper?
Yeah.
Like, very...
Like, there's different kinds of types of it.
Some people get really, really angry, and some people get really, really happy, and...
33:00
I see.
When you have mania, generally, you get a bit delusional, and a bit kind of...
Yeah.
But hypermania is, like, a slightly lower version of it, where you...
Got it.
You don't tend to lose your mind.
Got it.
I see.
Interesting.
I find sometimes when I get anxiety, and sometimes...
Or sometimes when I'm hypermanic, I start getting that.
Yeah, yeah.
It's such a horrible feeling.
Oh, yeah?
For me, it's like a...
Really interesting feeling.
But, yeah, it sometimes feels horrible, but it sometimes feels, like, almost artistic.
Yeah!
Like, I am here.
So, like, if you've never heard of the depersonalization, it's like you're there, but at the same time,
your feeling is not there.
You...
You're...
Like, your mind, your thinking is, like, in a whole different world.
Yeah!
You're in a different world, almost.
And it's a really interesting feeling to get.
It's almost like high, being high, kind of.
Yeah!
But kind of a...
There was one way someone described it, where it's kind of like you're looking through foggy
glass.
Ah, exactly!
That's what I feel, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's...
But actually, I never thought about the connection with, like, the creativity, or the, like,
artistic side.
That's so awesome!
Yeah, sometimes I get creativity from that experience, you know?
Yeah!
Even though you're...
Say you're, like, at the workplace, like, looking at your code, you're just not there, you know?
Yeah!
You're just in some other, like, western country or something.
Yeah!
Like, drinking coffee!
Yeah!
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
It's, like, so random!
It's so weird!
Yeah!
It's interesting, because I feel like when you talk to people who haven't experienced
it, and probably some people who are listening to this, you might just be thinking, oh, well,
that's just, like, when you're daydreaming.
Everyone does that.
But it is significantly different.
Yeah, it is, it is.
It's a full disconnection from, like, who you are.
Yeah, exactly.
Like, you feel like your body isn't real.
Yeah, exactly!
That's what I feel.
Yeah.
And, yeah, when I was diagnosed, now I'm, like, operating normally.
Back then, like, I was having issues because of that, you know?
I couldn't really live normally because of that.
Even though, like, people talked to me, I was not really responding.
So, yeah, that's kind of the experience I had.
Yeah, and you get to, like, daydreaming.
Someone's like, hey, Yuzu, you can, like, snap out of it.
I'm like, oh, sorry!
Yeah, yeah.
But when you're like that, you can't.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah, and also, like, especially for me, like, that daydreaming or, like, depersonalization
was happening when something terrible was happening.
Yeah!
I think I was trying to, like, unconsciously, like, depersonalize myself so that I don't
get hurt.
Yes!
So, yeah.
I don't think that's, like, healthy, you know?
No!
Like, because you're not in there to feel the pain, but you are actually feeling the
pain.
Even though you're not there, like, you're not, like, in the moment, you know?
36:04
Yeah, exactly.
And it kind of damages you later.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
So I don't think it's a healthy thing.
It's not.
Like, you can, there are coping strategies, like, strategies you can learn, and in some
cases medication, but it's not, it's like a defense mechanism.
Yeah, exactly.
It's not something you can choose to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it's something that sometimes happens to children when trauma has happened.
Right, right, right, right.
And it's like, and their brain kind of does its, and sometimes they can't even remember
it.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
I like reading about stuff.
Yeah, me too!
I like reading about how those things started and stuff.
Yes!
I have a Google Scholar alert for, like, papers about bipolar too.
You have a Google Scholar alert?
Oh my gosh, I should do that too.
It's so, I mean, half the, well, maybe, like, three quarters of the things that come through
are like, this chemical and this chemical and this protein.
Oh, that would be really hard to read.
And I'm like, I don't understand any of this.
But then other ones are relevant and interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, so we are sharing this passion about mental issues and mental illness, and I feel
like that's not a coincidence, you know?
Because mental health issues are so much of problem solving.
Yeah!
Like, when you talked yesterday.
Oh yeah!
Like, it's so, like, there's different sections of the population who are more susceptible
to this stuff.
Right, right.
And there's some stuff which is kind of scary about, like, depression is more common, I
think, in people who are more observant about the world, maybe?
Mmm!
Yeah!
I thought we weren't observant.
Yeah, and like, people who can kind of more intuitively understand the world.
Right, right, right.
Yeah, that sounds very like, ooh, we're so great, but it's kind of, it's, yeah, it's
interesting.
Yeah.
Like, I keep seeing it being so common in the uni students, which is so scary.
Even in mental diseases?
Yeah, yeah.
For most of them, it's more just like, they're not, their mental well-being is really bad.
And some of them, like, it develops into mental illness.
And then some people, it's just like, like, my bipolar was set off by very small things,
so I was, I was really, like, genetically at risk of it.
Like, my dad has major depressive disorder, my grandfather had bipolar.
Right.
Which we kind of only realised recently, which was interesting.
And then, like, other people on my dad's side of the family have depression, some people
on my mum's side of the family have anxiety.
So I was kind of...
Gotcha, gotcha.
It was always gonna happen.
There are genetic reasons, right?
But then some people, you can have, like, a really small genetic...
This is what the research currently says, so I mean, it might change and not be accurate
in the future, but at the moment it looks like people have different degrees of risk,
39:03
just based on the way your brain is structured.
So for some people, terrible things can happen to them, but they don't develop these.
Like, obviously their life is still incredibly difficult, but it doesn't turn into the illness.
Gotcha.
But then other people, not much can happen.
Like, I think my first depression was, like, a breakup.
Which is so, like, ugh.
Kind of common.
Yeah!
Right.
It's... but...
And you can have small things happen, and your life can be relatively good, but it sets
off the illness.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Which is interesting.
I can't remember.
Oh, and that was why, like, some of the...
Like, that culture within uni that really, a lot of people get anxiety and...
Well, they, like, really stress themselves out, they don't sleep properly, they don't
look after themselves.
Right, right, right.
It can, like, set it off.
And once you've got it, it's like...
Forever, kind of.
Yeah!
It's so scary, right?
Yeah!
Yeah, I feel like...
So people go to gym for, like, the health reasons.
Yeah!
I feel like people should go to counseling more.
Oh my god, I agree so much!
You should, like, have just the maintenance, you know?
Even if you're not, like, sick or anything.
Yeah!
It's really...
It feels really good to, like, have someone to talk to about your, like, mental issues.
You have this, like, understanding of you, which, like, you can't really get unless you
go there, you know?
Oh, I agree so much.
And it's...
I think one of the things I heard someone describe recently is, like...
Because, I mean, some people...
I quite enjoy my therapy appointments most of the time, because they make me feel good.
But some people, it's kind of, like...
They view it more as a chore, but there's...
Like, one article I read was someone being...
I don't go there because, like, it's, like, fun, but I do it...
It's like brushing my teeth.
Oh!
Like, I need it to keep myself healthy.
Exactly!
Yeah, like...
That's what I thought.
Exactly like going to the gym.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly, exactly.
So, yeah!
So, I feel like...
Coping with mental illness or, like, thinking about mental health is like a problem-solving.
Yeah!
Yeah.
So, you were doing the interesting program about it.
Oh, yeah!
Connecting mental health issues and...
Computer science!
Computer science!
It's crazy!
It was so weird.
I had this weird idea about it for, like, some things, and I started talking to people
about it, and they were like, oh, no, like, I can see connections, so...
I originally wanted to turn it into, like, a workshop I could go out and do, or a website,
but then I'm pretty sure I got depressed, so I couldn't do it for a while.
Let's do it!
I mean, I've been down.
Like, I wanna do it, too.
That would be incredible.
Yeah, that's, like, something I wanted to do for such a long time, like, connecting computer
science and mental illness, but I was not sure how.
But there are...
There are connections.
It's so interesting.
That's true.
Like, I mean, there's that kind of thing like, oh, your brain is a computer, which, I mean,
isn't exactly, like, it's not a very perfect metaphor, but, like, in some ways it's similar.
42:03
Yeah.
Like, and the problem-solving thing, I was just looking at it this morning.
What was some of it?
There was some really...
Because the way you approach your mental well-being, you have to kind of identify...
You identify problems, and then you look at solutions.
Yeah, exactly.
And there's...
There's some...
The one I did was, like, it wasn't on, if you do this, your mental illness will be cured,
because that's not how it works.
Yeah, yeah.
It was, these are things you can do to improve your mental well-being, so there was things
about how you deal with, like, mental bandwidth.
Mmm, mental bandwidth!
Yeah!
Like, there's only so much information you can fit in at once.
That's so true.
Yeah.
That's so true.
Otherwise, you start dropping packets.
Yeah!
Dropping packets.
You get that intrusive thought, and...
Oh, yeah, the...
Oh, it's like a memory cache?
Yeah, like...
Garbage?
Like, if you haven't got good garbage disposal in your code, then random, like...
If there's memory leak...
Yes, exactly!
You start to get that intrusive thought.
Yeah, you get, like, intrusive thoughts coming in that are really negative or really scary,
and sometimes you, like, want to obsess over them.
Right.
Sometimes you're just like, look, brains, like, do weird stuff sometimes.
Right, right.
Like, I don't need to obsess over that, or jump away from it.
I'm trying to think of, like, some common...
There's actually a form of OCD, which is about obsessing over those thoughts, because one
of the common ones I've read about is people, particularly when they're younger, and I'm
sure it becomes less common in the future because people aren't...
Well, people, hopefully, will become less homophobic as time comes on.
There's a common one where people, particularly if they've been brought up thinking it's bad,
will have random thoughts like, maybe I'm gay, or maybe I'm in love with this friend.
Right, right, right.
Like, if they have a fight with someone, they'll be like, maybe it's because I want to do sexual
things with them.
Right.
And then start obsessing over that, even though it's just kind of random thoughts.
Right, right, right, right.
Sorry, there's much better examples, but that's the only one I can really think of.
But, yeah, I think that's something most of the people have experienced, right?
Yeah!
That kind of random thought.
Exactly!
Yeah, interesting.
It was one...
Yeah, it's really...
It's strange.
And then, the mental bandwidth one, like, if you've got too much going through, like,
your brain just gets overheated, and you need to try and get some of those things out of
your head.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
And then the one I always like to tell people first is, like, if you're having...
The first time I did it, I focused a lot on uni students, and I was like, if you're really
struggling, if you're really anxious, if you're stuck on that assignment, have you tried turning
it off and on again?
Which isn't exactly computer science, but...
I love that.
Oh my gosh, I love that.
Oh my gosh, there's so much more I want to talk about, but...
Oh, me too!
45:00
It's time to wrap up.
Oh no!
Yeah, I know.
Oh my gosh.
I really want to talk about more.
If I come visit Japan, or if you come visit New Zealand, we should do more.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
We should do it.
So, yeah.
So, that's about it for today.
So, any final comments for, like, possible listeners?
Like, they might...
Yeah, do you have any comments for them?
I'm on the mental health train of thought now, so...
I would say, anyone...
Of course, when you think you're struggling with mental illness, the best thing is to
reach out, but just generally, if you're struggling in uni, or in your job, in terms of stress
and anxiety, there are small...
Not small...
There are skills you can learn to help cope with it.
So true.
And also, get enough sleep.
That is always the best thing.
That's so true.
That's so true.
Oh my gosh.
But it's, like, sometimes, like, not seen.
Like, people don't ever see it.
Exactly.
Sleep is so important.
Oh my god, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah.
That's about it for today.
Thank you so much, Caitlin.
And thank you for having me.
Yeah, of course.
Thank you for listening.
Bye.
Bye.
