二刀流のテーマ
Hello, Nai-chan!
Hello, Asami!
Alright, so this is our monthly event of 科学系ポッドキャストの日.
Yay!
And we have a special guest.
So, I think, I don't know if this episode is going to come first or if the other episode
is going to come first, but we have had Nai-chan for two of our episodes.
Nai-chan from 35歳右に行くか左に行くか。 So, here we are going to talk about 科学系ポッドキャストのテーマね。
で、今回は let me do the normal-ish feel.
So, 科学系ポッドキャストの日は毎月テーマを決めて、
ホストの方がテーマを決めて、いろんなポッドキャスト番組が
それぞれの解釈で広げていって、同じ話題を繰り広げるっていうイベントで、
そのポッドキャストたちは一回全部Spotifyのプレイリストに
一箇所にまとめられるので、そこに行けば
いろんな人のこのテーマを聞けるっていう話なんですが、
今月のテーマは二刀流というテーマで、
これ英語でなんていうの?
それね、私も迷った。
How do I say that?って思って、
ちょっと考えたので、また後でシェアしたいと思うんですけど。
二刀流を決めてくれたのは、
デンマークが世界一、略してデンセカという番組の
イプセンさんとタツさん、デンマーク人のイプセンさんと
日本人のタツさんがお互いの英語と日本語をシェアしながら
それぞれの言語をインプルーブしていくっていう試みを
ポッドキャストでそのまま配信を流してくれていて。
すごい、あれはめちゃくちゃ面白いですよね。
そうですよね。しかもいろんな話題を振ってくれてるんで、
科学だけに縛られずに、いろんなシチュエーションでの
英語とか日本語が聞けて。
英語表現の探求
I think ASINIGHT is a little bit too heavy on English,
especially these days, because since Len joined.
Okay, but it's also very good for me.
Oh, thank you.
You know, Nai-chan, you're a very advanced English speaker.
I mean, that's the level that we sort of shoot for,
but I have no idea who's listening to this podcast.
Right.
So, I think it goes from anywhere between people who are already fluent in English
to people who are trying to learn English, and everyone in between.
So, if you find ASINIGHT to be a little bit too challenging,
I think Denseka is a good sort of like, in-between step.
Like a mixture of Japanese and English.
Yes.
So, that's a good one.
But, so,
二刀流をなんて英語で言おうかって考えて、
あの、Nai-chanにさっき言われたんだけど、
So, two swords, okay.
最初テーマに出てきた時に、
It's definitely not two swordsって思ったのよ。
そうそうそう。
そのまんま略したら、
Two sword methodみたいな感じだけど、
いや、絶対そんなこと言わないよなって思って、
なんかでも、しっくりくる、
巫女のものが極めてるみたいなイメージの言葉が思いつかなくて、
で、なんかこう、一番、
The closest I came to that was the phrase called,
Jack of all trades.
Have you heard of this, Nai-chan?
No.
Actually, this is the first time for me to hear that.
So, I googled it at first.
And then, when I saw it,
I feel like,
Who is Jack?
ジャックだれよって。
A valid question.
A valid question.
Like, who the hell is Jack, right?
Well,
The full sentence, the full phrase,
It goes like,
Jack of all trades, master of none.
So,
Jack of all trades is like,
A jack who can do everything.
Like, who can do a lot of trades.
All trades.
And, master of none means,
He can do a lot of things,
But he cannot do,
He's not a master at any one of them.
That's the sort of, like a,
So, I think the closest Japanese saying to this is actually,
器用貧乏。
Like, you know,
Crime if I'm wrong.
Oh, I think that's right.
そう、いろんなことができるけど、
どれも極めていない。
みたいなニュアンス。
で、
Your question about Jack, though, I think is,
It's just,
This is just, like, my speculation.
It's not a correct, definitive answer by any means.
But, English idioms have a lot of these phrases where,
Like, a random
こいう名詞が出てくる。
なんでだろうね、それ。
Like, Average Joe,とか、
John Smith,とか、
で、なんか、
まあ、その、
日本語的には、なんか、
山田太郎、みたいな、
そういう感じなんだけど、
その、
Equivalentはね。
だけど、
不特定のアノリマスって感じだよね。
そうそうそう、なんか、
Average Joe,とかは、
なんか、こう、
普通の、
めっちゃ普通の人、みたいな。
でも、
Why does it have to be Joe?
I don't know.
Right?
Like, I don't know why it has to be Joe.
Same thing, like,
I don't know why it's Jack of all trades.
Right?
It could've been, like,
It could've been, like, Mike of all trades.
Yeah, what I see this saying,
And also the, you know,
The Average Joe,
Is disrespect to the real Jack and Joe.
Well,
I think,
I think they're both, like,
Common enough names,
That they are not gonna be offended
By being referred to as Average,
Because, like,
They also probably know, like,
10 or 12 different Joes,
Other than themselves.
Right.
So they know.
But because that,
There is a saying,
Like, you know,
Average Joe, or
Jack of all trades,
So if there is the Joe in the class,
Does anyone say,
Does anyone say,
Oh, that is because of the Joe,
Or that is because of Jack?
No.
No.
I think people have a separate, like,
Concept for that.
Like, it's not, like,
There's,
You have to remember that,
In English,
Unlike Japanese,
There's a lot fewer variation to names.
You know,
Most of the names come from Bible,
And, like,
Maybe some, like, you know,
Gaelic,
Like some German,
Some other language brought in here together.
But most of European names
Come from some variation of Bible.
Right.
So you find a lot of, like,
Laura's,
You find a lot of Sarah's,
Like, that kind of thing.
And Jack is just one of those names,
And it's common enough.
And I think it's just, like, fun to say,
Jack of all trades,
Rather than, like,
Like, Jason of all trades.
Well, the rhythm is very important, I think.
The Jack of all trades.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It doesn't make much sense.
It doesn't make much sense.
And Jack and Master has an in, right?
Because they're stepping on an in.
Jack of all trades,
Master of all trades.
Ah, like that.
Yeah, there you go.
Good sense.
Yeah, yeah.
Something like that.
But, um,
So if you didn't already know this idiom,
This is a pretty common phrase.
Jack of all trades and Master of none.
一般的な専門家と汎用的な技能
Well, since we're kagakukei podcast today,
And we would like to be very technical about this talk,
I'm going to go cite a certain somebody
Called Robert H. MacArthur,
Who is a famous ecologist from back in the day.
And his research was about
Studying organisms in an environment
And how they adapt to environment.
Just very broadly speaking, right?
So in his terms, right,
Generalists, which are jacks in this case,
They have some cost in each environment.
So in order to survive in that environment,
They have to, like, pay something.
You know, whether that's, like, their effort
Or their, like, survivability,
Something like that.
But they will pay the cost
Such that a specialist
Who is in the same environment
Can outcompete a generalist.
So in any specific environment,
Environment A,
A generalist is never going to be
Sort of more optimized than a specialist.
Whereas a specialist,
Under the same circumstances,
Will always have better survival, like, chance.
They have optimized
Their genetic traits, whatever,
Surviving in that environment.
And so in the world
Where there is only one singular,
Unchanging environment,
Specialists always have better chance
Of survival than generalists.
But we don't live in that world.
We live in a world where
The environment constantly changes.
They interact with outside environment.
So this gives both the generalist
And a specialist
Like a decent chance to survive.
So that's kind of the tension
That we're playing here.
So in this case,
Generalists are jacks.
Specialists are our masters.
And we're going to think of them
As, like, that way.
So, you know, not just, like,
Specific skill sets.
But we're going to think about it
In terms of environment
And how adapted the jacks
Or the masters are
In that specific environment.
Oh, I see.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, I understand.
And also, one more note aside
Is that, you know,
MacArthur in his research
Talked about generalists
And specialists
In terms of all organisms
That exist in a specific environment.
You know, everyone from bacteria
To fungus
To, like, animals.
Okay.
人間の環境適応
We're just going to focus on humans here.
That's interesting.
And
Not only the human
We can, you know,
Sometimes, you know,
Recognize that bacteria or virus
Is more generalist than specialist.
Yeah.
I mean, like, if you think about it
That's interesting.
Humans cannot survive
At least nakedly, you know,
In, like, negative 40 degrees.
That's pretty rough.
But there are plenty of bacterias
Who can live under that kind of conditions
And procreate and expand their populations
No problems.
Like, I think
That's an interesting thing about studying,
I think, biology
Is that we think
Like the world is for us
But it's actually really not.
Oh, yeah.
That's true.
That's true.
Oh, I see.
Interesting.
But for the purpose of our discussion
I only want to talk about humans.
So, like, human generalist
And human specialist.
And then the environment we talk about
Is largely, like,
In the human interaction environment.
So not just, like,
A man in a desert kind of situation.
Like, general life.
Yeah.
Very general, like,
A person A, a person B
In a society.
I see.
And so, like, my question
二刀流の探求
When I hear this phrase
Jack of all trades, master of none
Is, like, to what extent
Is that true?
You know, to
Can Jacks really be, like,
Good at all trades?
And, like, is
Or, if I were to flip that, like,
Is a master not capable of mastering
More than one thing?
Oh, I see.
You know?
Like, can a master be a little bit of Jack?
And then, is Jack really a Jack?
Right?
And
So it's about whether or not duality exists.
Right, right.
When I heard duality,
It was like, my own duality,
Or, like,
It was kind of a nuance prompt.
Like, talk about two languages.
Or, like, two hobbies.
Like, a podcaster and a researcher.
Like, talk about those.
It was kind of like that.
But more than that,
What I'm interested in is
Like, in response to this question
Can duality really exist?
Does it really happen?
Yeah.
Like, and what does science have to say about this?
Right, right.
Like, do we have
I'm sure there are people who did research on
If this is possible or not.
And the short answer is
And I'm just going to spoil listeners
For the rest of the episode
So you might just, like, listen to this bit
And just, like, skip to the next episode.
But the short answer to this is that
It's a lot more nuanced
Than I thought it was.
Like, there's no real
Sort of conclusive
Answer
To whether Nitori is possible
In a true sense.
So that's a spoiler.
But if you want to hear more me some more
There are some more things I read.
So, one way
神経可塑性の概念
To, like, think about Nitori
Is like, well, you have to have a skill
You have to have a skill in one thing
And then you have to have another skill, right?
So that makes you a Nitori.
And
I've, like, looked up
Some concepts around
Neuroplasticity
Which is
An ability for a brain
To reorganize itself
By forming
New neural connections.
So, our brains
Develop in a certain way
But with new
Interactions or new information
Like learning new skills
You can
Both rewire
Change the wiring of our brain
So that different systems
Connect with different parts of our brain
Or you can also, like, grow
More brain matter
In certain different parts of the brain
By learning new skills.
So both are possible. And they're both called
Neuroplasticity.
Until
About 1950s, people thought
That this only happens in kids.
So, like, you know, when kids learn how to speak
Or, like, when kids learn how to
Control their behavior
Or, that's
Expand ability. Right.
Like, the growth that we sort of, like, see
They thought
That only happens to, sort of, developing brains.
Once it's developed, once it reaches
Maturity, they didn't think that
More skills can be learned.
However,
More recent research, basically
After 1950s and onwards
They have realized that, no,
Adult brains, the developed
Mature brain also changes
Quite a lot
Based on different training exposures
Different environment exposures
And that
Can count as plasticity.
So
This can happen in a number of different ways
As I've been saying.
This is sort of, like, a form of adapting
To a new environment.
So, I bet Maki-san
Ever since she moved to the U.S.
Has been neuroplasticizing a lot.
Definitely.
She's trying to get used to the culture
And environment there.
She's trying to get used to the new culture
New language, new working style
With her brain.
Exactly. So, her brain
Probably looks very different from what it looks like
In Japan.
So, going deeper into our specialization
Can also form
Have a form of neuroplasticity.
And processing memories
Recovering from brain injuries
Things like that. So, when you have
Traumatic brain injuries
And you, let's say, lose a part of your brain
Or a part of your brain
Shut down for some period of time
Your brain will learn
How to make it work
By
Things rewiring and reorganizing
Around it.
So, one of the sort of examples
That the papers I've read listed
Were mostly for adults
Focused largely in
Motor learning skills
Learning new sports
Learning new movements
Musical instruments like visual
Motor and visual audio
Or audio motor
That kind of combination
Seemed to work really well for adult
Brain plasticity.
And
神経可塑性の理解
Yeah, they basically
Have been sort of scientifically
Observed
Using imaging techniques
To have a
Change in what they call
Brain gray matter
Volume. So, it's like a part of the
Brain where the neurons are clustered
And
White matter volume
And white matter in brain
Refers to the connection between
The different regions of brain
So, both of those have been observed
To change or increase in volume
Or reorganize
Change, whatever
Before and after the sort of
Training section.
This seems to work really well around
Sort of like a motor skill
Area, so things like coordination
Motion perception, like do you know
How your fingers are moving
Do you know and understand
How to like let's say when you're
Learning how to skip, like you need
To push the ground
And lift one of your leg up
While you jump
Right, like that is
A very complex motor
Skills if you've never learned how to do it
So, that is like
What you can think of as like a
Coordination
I see
But you know
In that
Research, because you know
How to define the
X part level
I'm very curious
Right, so that's
Sort of one of the criticisms
Of these type of
Research
They, like what
They do sometimes, sometimes it's a very
Clear cut example, right
Like they
They have a
Musician group and a non-musician
Group, or like
Elite athletes and
Non-athletes
So sometimes it's like very clear
But other times
It's you know kind of unclear
Right, they did some prior tests
To screen their
Participants and
They said okay people who scored
More than this
Like 80% on this test
Is count as elite
Or like more experienced
And then people who score lower than that
Will be the non-experts
So
You raise a good point
Like everyone, sort of every study
Slightly differently defines
What it means to be an expert and non-experts
But
For the most part
That I've sort of
In the review papers that I've read
They seem to have
So if they have a
Large participant group
The definition is a little bit vague
If they have a small participant group
Like 30 people
Then they have a very clear idea
Of who's an expert and who's not
Right, I see
Yeah
Good question though
So that
And then
Another sort of interesting
Cool example
Of neuroplasticity
Is called cross-modal plasticity
So that's kind of like an extreme example
Where let's say
Like a person is born without vision
Right
So this person has never seen light
In their lives
But they
Can recruit
Other sensory functions
Like auditory function or touch
Sensation function
And really train them
In a way that is
So much more sensitive
Than maybe
Seeing people can
So that they can
Compensate for the lack of vision
To understand their environment
That sort of like
So that kind of like enhanced sensitivity
Is one form
Of plasticity
So that's like
When you compensate one mode
Lack of one mode
With another mode
And training to be able to do that
Is a form of
Neuroplasticity as well
I see, that's interesting
Because in my institute there is a person
Who cannot listen
The hearing ability is very low
And then
I sometimes talk with him
By writing
The sentences on the note
And then he also did the research
About the disability
Persons
In the developing countries
I heard a very unique story
One of the
Disability person
Who cannot, an invisible person
But his listening ability
Is so high
So when he flushed the water
He could
Get a sense
How far
The object is
Because of the sound
Reflects
To his ear
And he could get
How far the obstacle is
I cannot do it
Exactly
So that's an excellent example
Of neuroplasticity
Perhaps
They're born a certain way
And the rest of the brain learned
How to compensate for that
To not recover vision
But by enhancing
The sensitivity of other parts
Of the brain
They can compensate for the lack of that vision
For instance
And this can happen in
Audio as well
So someone who is deaf
Can
Implant something like a
Cochlea implant
Have you heard about this one?
Where you can put
A device inside your brain
So that you bypass
二刀流の可能性
The inner ear system
And
Translate the pressure wave
Into your ears, into digital signal
So that it goes to your brain
As
An audio information
And
At first
These implant receivers
Have to learn how to do that
So it's not like
Where you put a new headphone
And you immediately know how to do that
And people who get
Cochlear implants
Don't have that brain connection
Because they never had to use it
They never relied on the sense of hearing
So
First they need to learn
They need to teach their brain
That this signal means audio
Interesting
But by doing that over and over again
Eventually
The transition of
Hearing the pressure wave
Onto your ears
And sending the electrical signal down your brain
That becomes very smooth
So that it's almost like you can hear
Ah
Interesting
I want to try if I can
That's a really fascinating example
Of neuroplasticity
So all of this to say
It is biologically possible
For
Human adults to learn
New skills
So it's not as extreme as
Learning a new sense
New senses
Sensations and new skills
You can do that
You can also learn how to play new sports
That's also a part of neuroplasticity
And you can do that well into your adulthood
So you don't have to be
A kid who's learning how to live
In order to do this
Although
One sort of caveat
To this research is that
It still relies on
Observational evidence
So they see it in
An imaging
Or they see it in a signal
Processed spectra
That there is a change
Before and after
But the exact mechanism
Of how neuroplasticity
Happens
Or in what way
What sort of molecules are involved
That's still a big mystery
People still are trying to
Figure out how
You can induce neuroplasticity
In a way
That you want it to
Because right now they don't have a control over
They just see before
And after it changes
That's all they are confident about
So that's just one caveat
I'm sure there's a lot more active
Research going on about
How exactly that happens
Yeah because I consciously want to
Learn
The brain
I want to teach my brain how to acquire new skills
But that is
To be continued
To be continued
Yes
So that's an interesting concept
That I read
So we are capable of learning new skills
Well into adulthood
So that does give us
An option to be able to be
A Nitori
We are capable
But of course
There's a limitation
To neuroplasticity
This sounds like a magic
This sounds like amazing
Fabulous things
That one can do to your brain
But there's very little research
On sort of
Because we don't know the exact mechanism
We don't know
At what cost
Neuroplasticity happens
So when you're learning one skill
Do you lose the existing
Other skills that you already had?
Or is
And it looks like
You don't completely lose it
But you temporarily typically
Lose
Like the existing skills
At least you stop improving
On the existing skills
And then while you acquire
And then you kind of have to switch back and forth
In order to improve both
Like my foreign language
Yeah, exactly
So you're doing the right thing
As far as the brain goes
Sometimes spiritize
The one language and sometimes others
Yeah
And sort of like repeated exposure
Is sort of the key
In any
New skill acquisitions
So
This is
Sort of like
One sort of limitation of neuroplasticity
It's not like
You make
Neuroplasticity happen
And everything is solved
It's like you still have other things you need to compensate for
And
So much of this
Is just still
Not very known
But what people have
Figured out is that it's a very specific
Combination of training
Training time
Training environment
And things like that
And it's very hard to get
A statistically valid data
That measures change
In a meaningful way
So
Because of the specificity
You would need to do
Tons of people
Doing same things
With
In order to see
The measurable difference
But of course it's also so much harder
In reality
To have thousands and millions
Of participants in exact same
Starting point
Doing exact same training
That's the argument
Behind the neuroplasticity
二刀流の可能性
It's just really hard to do
It's very hard
Because their informants
Should be the human
It's very difficult to control
Exactly
Like what I just described
In cochlear implants
With the deaf people
It doesn't work for everyone
It works for some people
It works better for some people
Than the other
And they are yet to figure out
Under what condition
It works better
Because it's so individual
And so specific
So
That was an interesting
Argument
About neuroplasticity
So I think
And this is not the only
Perspective
On Nitori
There are many different ways
To be Nitori
This is one specific lens
That I went down
Which is what happens to the brain
Itself
And I'm sure there are a lot of things
Outside of our brain
That changes, that happens
When you are learning new skills
So
Not to say that this is end all and be all
But I think as far as
Neuroplasticity goes
It's a nuanced answer
Like it works
Like we're technically capable
Yes
Technically capable
But does it work
For your specific brain
And does it work for your specific
Training and does it work for
Your specific combination
Of the two skills
That's a big mystery
Yeah that's true because when I
Heard your explanation immediately
I feel like okay my brain has
A capacity but why not
I don't have the capacity
Right
Your brain might be capable of
But you might not know
What's the best training environment
Or you don't know
All the time
My friends, especially
Overseas friends ask me
Why don't we learn another language
To expand
Your world or something
And for me I think my brain
Has the capacity to learn
But for me
Don't say that please
Three is my max
Language capacity for me
I always reply to them
You don't want to do it
I do not want to do it
And that already
Primes your
Brain environment in a certain way
But the fact that you
Emotionally don't want to do it
Is going to
Determine how your brain
Is going to interact
When you are exposed to the fourth language
And the fifth language
So
In what exact way
We don't know because I don't have your brain
But I think
I might better to rely on
My brain first and do
That I try
At least
I should try
Maybe your own biological
Being is smarter than
Your emotional being
So you know my brain
And my body is so detached to each other
So it's so funny
It's a fun
Concept to think about for sure
That's true true
So I think it's
So my answer to like Nitoriu is like
It looks like it's possible
But
Like does it work
You know does it work for everyone
Maybe not
And maybe we are all
Nitoriu and Santoriu in many ways
That we don't recognize
We are already many things
Definitely
We are already
You know
We are not just one thing most of us
But maybe you don't think it's
Very special that you are a woman
Or you don't think it's special
That you are a human
Yeah
I guess like my body
And my environment
Doesn't
Don't let me to
Challenge many things
Because many things are very time consuming
And power consuming
So
Sometimes I saw
Several researchers who
Try to expand their careers
Or their majors
But most of them
Among you know
Majors
Most of them
They needed to do that
Because of their
The research country
Has been collapsed
And the research informant
Went to another country
Or
Researcher cannot go to that country
So they need to change the subject
To dig
Their research question
The research question itself are same
But are different or something like that
And then to change the field
They need to learn another language
Another culture
So they had to expand their capability
But
More like
But their own
Will
I don't know
They might do not want to
They might not want to do that
But they had to
Yeah
And you brought up
An interesting point because
We all have limited time
On this earth
We just don't know how long
So like
Let's say this new thing takes 20 years
To acquire and be a master at
Is it too late if I start now?
Or
It will be too late
If I am destined to die in 5 years
You just don't know
二刀流の可能性
Do I give up or do I start anyway?
It's also very scary to do the new things
All the time
Right, right
Because it comes at an opportunity cost
You could be improving the thing you are already good at
Instead of learning new things
I had better to carry on
The same topic
It's easier, definitely
Right, you already know so much about it
But maybe
You switching a topic
Gives you a fresh pair of eyes
To your existing topic
And you know
Makes an interesting chemical reaction
Out of it
And so
It's very indirect
And we don't always know a priori
How that's going to affect
Down the road
And we don't know how long we live
So we don't know the time axis for that either
I guess I'm thinking out loud as we speak
But I guess it's just like
If you feel like trying new things
Might as well do it
Maybe is the answer
That's true, yeah, I feel so
Because you don't know if it's going to be useful
Try, try first
And think later
Like Bruce Lee
Previously said
Don't think, just feel
And don't think, just challenge
Just do it
Rely on your brain, not your body or circumstance
That's a good thing
I think I'm going to take that advice
I'll try not to be the limiting factor
For my own brain
Because my brain apparently is capable
Of so much more than I think it is
Well, that's a good place to end
Well, thank you, Nai-chan
For coming along
To our collaboration
I'm very honored to be here
I hope everyone
I will put all of your info
On the show notes
Okay, thank you so much
Yeah, I don't know
Is there any last remark
You want to leave the listeners with
I hope the listeners bear with my
Poor English, but I hope everyone
Feel okay
No, we decided we're not going to hide
We're not going to do the cancel thing
I'm very happy to have a chat
This is really the first time for me
To record a podcast
Totally in English for me
Yeah, very first time
Yay!
Well, I hope
If you liked what you heard
Please write to us saying
That you would like to have Nai-chan back again
And maybe we can hear more of her
English stories as well
I think our listeners
Would be very surprised because
They don't know how much English I can speak
Yes, yes
I'm so excited for that
Alright, well
That's it for the show today
Thanks for listening, bye!
That's it for the show today
Thanks for listening and find us on
X at Eigo de Science
That is E-I-G-O-D-E
S-C-I-E-N-C-E
See you next time
