00:11
So, we were talking about the phrase, it builds character, and one of the, I guess, classic
examples of things that people tell you that it builds character is, along with like sports
and other things, it's like academic things, right?
You know, do the, do the, go, go to, graduate, go graduate your high school, and go to college,
graduate college, get a job, what have you, you know, and did you get your share of the
it builds character in those phase of your life?
Yeah, um, I, we hinted at like some of the bits that we had heard, you know, it builds
like around ballet or karate and stuff like that. And there's, there's some nuance there.
I definitely, I probably heard it maybe a little bit as a joke, I think, you know, when
going out to do like chores and things, because you kind of mentioned other, you know, like
doing sports, also, when you're doing chores, you know, yeah, when your parents want you
to do something they don't want to do, right? Yep. It builds character, and therefore you
should be doing it, not me, because my character is already built. So, that's the idea.
You know, as a person who is about 20-30 years older than you, they might reserve the right
to say that.
Yeah, at least they do for a little while, I think it gets misused, but they do, there's
a...
They might get used, misused, abused, but, you know, to a certain extent, they do have
had more time to build their character. So, they are more likely to say that their character
has already been built. And you, the youngsters, still need to build your character.
But, yeah, so those, it seems reasonable, you know, maybe in certain contexts there,
but you get a lot of it. And I think you get it a lot, as you had said, you know, when
somebody wants to affirm that you're still in the building stages, right? So, you really
need to be doing the hard things to build yourself.
Yeah.
University, academic stuff, all of those are good examples, I think. I do not remember
if I was told specifically that phrase, I think I mentioned that already, but the essence
of, you know, if I was struggling to complete a project or an assignment, which in university
03:05
was less common, then it would be, you know, like, oh, it's important though, like that
you struggle now, right? Like that you do this sort of thing. And it was much harder
to listen to people saying, maybe you should take a break. Maybe you should, you know,
not do that thing, right? Because it's very...
You know what, like, in that situation, just this thought occurred to me, there's this
thing called effort justification theory, right? Maybe it's also known as sunk cost
fallacy as well. But basically, if you invested a lot onto something, you want to believe
that it's a good thing. You want to believe that you worked hard for a good cause, even
if it was objectively not. And which is understandable, you worked so hard, you like put so much
energy, you poured your heart and soul on it. You want to believe that, yes, that linear
algebra four that you didn't have to take was totally necessary and was good for you.
Yeah, yeah, it's, you've, you've just touched on a topic that is so great. Because like,
that sunk cost fallacy, or what was the other name you gave to it? I don't know if I've heard
that.
I don't know if it's a real name for it. I kind of feel like I learned it this way.
Okay.
It's called effort justification theory.
Yeah, that I mean, to me, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, you always have a bias towards justifying what you put your effort in, rather than
whether it was a positive outcome or not.
Right? Yeah. And that's it sort of loops back into it's a it's a soothing option for yourself,
right? You're soothing yourself.
And I feel like it builds character is exactly sort of like, yes, encouraging that bias, right?
Yep. Yep.
And you might tell yourself, hey, it's hard now, but it's building my character.
Yep. It's one way to pass down that sunk cost fallacy idea to the people who are currently
trying to learn how to live and survive. Because you can, I'm reaffirming in myself that, yeah,
what I did was important.
It's a mixture of survivor bias. It's a mixture of sunk cost fallacy.
Yeah.
I think yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot of bias in there in that phrase, it builds character.
Yeah, I didn't think we could expand this much on this.
Yeah, we were ready to transition. And then we had so much more here,
because now we're asking questions that I think come back to like,
human entities desire for meaning, right? It's, it's something meaningful. That's, you know,
06:07
why would we argue so hard that a thing we did was, quote, unquote, important, or meaningful,
it's because we want that satisfaction of it. Because we know that our effort was put in right,
that you were involved, you invested in some way. And it's really painful and sad to
to imagine that it wasn't right to even imagine it, never mind if it actually was or wasn't. But
right. Yeah. This, this definitely transitions us into the topic that we wanted to talk about.
I can take us there if we're ready to do that. So I think I mentioned the idea of right,
the other the looking back and being like, wow, that was, it wasn't exactly what I think I wanted,
or it didn't do what I was hoping it would do. And that brings harder feelings, right? It's
sort of sadness, maybe senses of regret for people, you know, maybe disappointment.
Man, I don't think we got a time to that any better being off for that one.
That, I think, is something that I've definitely had to think about, when I think back on grad
school. And this is when we, you know, we're sort of hoping to transition into
whether somebody might want to do a PhD program or any degree program.
Yeah. You maybe like, sure, in short ways. Do you feel like grad school built your character?
Oh, God, I should have seen this question coming.
Was it too loaded? Was it too loaded?
No, no, it was it was perfectly primed. And then you sort of, you know, sunk it right down. It
was perfect. It was a good. It was a good whatever they call that in volleyball, a spike. Maybe that
sounds too aggressive. The question, the question is fine. So yeah, did it build character? I would
say that as a result of all of the things that happened during grad school and the time around
it, my character has improved. I would in fact, say, but like, this is not just grad school related,
like both things in and outside of grad school. Right. And now if I look just at the grad school
program, if I try to imagine that there was, I don't know, not the same outside,
maybe systems that existed. Yeah. Grad school gave me a good taste of what
messy, complicated, poorly structured systems look like. I don't know if that particularly...
09:04
You're not just talking about your 2D materials that you studied the thermal properties of.
No, I'm talking about, I think, the dynamics amongst like academic and university settings,
right? This is... Just had to make sure. Yeah, no, the 2D materials were a structural
playground, I guess. But the, yeah, I'd say, I'd say this... It was also a messy and complex
structure. It was a messy and complex sort of, yeah, sort of exploration as far as that was
concerned. But I would say, I think the question for most people, right? Should I go to an advanced
degree program is a really big question, both for the immediate considerations. And then if
somebody has the ability or the sort of foresight to try and look ahead, this idea of, you know,
if I look back on it, right, what am I going to think or feel about that experience, the effort
that goes into it? Because it does, it does request, it requests a grad program, an advanced
degree program, a PhD program, especially requests a lot of your time, your effort, your energy.
Even if you don't have to actually give all of that, you're constantly requested for a lot of
that. Yes. And so I think it is like a prime example, based on our conversation, it's a prime
example of something that we want to say was meaningful. And it helped us be a better human
because of it. It's a prime example of something that we want to believe that it was good for us.
Yeah. Yes. 100%. Right. If you put that much time and effort into something, honestly,
because it was a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. It was a lot. You will get a lot of people that I think,
maybe whether they're consciously aware of this distinguishing factor, right? That you will look
back and be like, I made it out. I was successful. And this is a, this is a key challenge for a lot
of people. I was successful. Therefore, it was worthwhile. And this is not a reasonable,
even logical sort of chain of thought, but it is a soothing chain of thought. It's a,
it's a reminder that the thing is done, that the struggle is done, and that you can now perhaps
change that situation, right? Right. And by believing that it was all for good cause in
building your character, it's to affirm that all of the struggles and resources you put in
was worth it, right? There was a return on an investment. And that's a soothing thought.
12:00
Yep. Yep. But before we kind of go and discuss into sort of like, what helps perhaps an incoming
student into grad school, what would help them decide whether to do a PhD or not before that?
I want to quickly drop what I thought, whether it builds my character. Yeah,
yeah, please. You know, that I generally have positive, like outcome of PhD, I'm generally
very grateful. But when I think about it, I don't think it did much to my character.
Like it gave me skills, right? It gave me skills on how to navigate research,
how to handle difficult problems, how to troubleshoot difficult problems, and taught
me how to sort of not get bogged down, right? Like you are allowed to get bogged down, but like you
want to pick yourself up at some point and then keep going. And that keeping going is like 90%
of the research is like, what I feel like I've learned. So those are valuable lessons
and skills that I picked up along the way. But I don't think it did much to my character.
Like I think I haven't changed much as a person. I have a fancy three letters after my name.
And I sound smarter to some people because of it. But and it gives me a license to practice
research for a living. Yeah, but I really don't think it did much to my character.
And maybe that's why I don't feel like it like consumed me the way it did for a lot of my friends.
That's it. I Wow, that connection is interesting. The idea of like, maybe the experience was
separated from your we might need to define character at some point, but it was separated.
It was not it was separated from my value. Yeah, that's a good way myself as
my worth didn't change with or without PhD. Like, am I proud of it? Of course. But
am I a better human because of PhD? No, I'm the same old person. Right? Okay, you see,
you see that very clearly, right? That that is, you are you in that space. And what you gained
were things that you could now do or execute. But that's separate from of course, who you are,
right? Your sense of self in that space? I think so. I don't think I inherently gained
gained more self worth from pursuing PhD. Yeah, I mean, that's great. That's honestly,
15:00
I don't think I'm going to make a wildly broad statement. I think you don't have to build
character in a PhD program. That's no, and in fact, I might even argue that you want to come
into one with that sense of self you just described, right? Because if you don't,
you will be faced with situations that used conflate in a previous episode. So for anybody
who remembers this, it might conflate or worsen the conflation between yourself and the work
and skills that you do. That's what that program may result in. Right? Yes, yes. And I have come
very close to that also, I think, coming really close to tying my productivity, whatever that
meant, right? Like, yeah, visible, easy to understand part of the research and productivity
demonstration. It was really easy to tie that to my self worth. But like, thanks to how fucking
difficult my research problem was already, and how people have made it aware that it is indeed
a very difficult thing I'm trying to do. I didn't fully fall into the trap of like productivity
equals my worth. Because I knew that what I'm trying to do was hard. And if I tie myself worth
to achieving extremely, extremely hard things, I might not do that in the span of my PhD.
Right. And yeah, that that that's just like a time axes problem. Like I will achieve it at some
point. But like, I, you know, whether I can make it within this, like four or five years of PhD
was like a separate question. That is such a like, it's both, I think, a really important point.
And it's such a great thing to hear, that you were given a bit of that, like buffer, not even
not buffer, but a bit of bounding, right to also reinforce the fact that those were separate.
Right? You mentioned how it was both. Yeah, yeah. My understanding and my advisors communicating
that clearly, right? Because you were, as you said, there is, you ended up close to possibly
conflating those things. And that's part of everything we do, as people, where like, we do
the things and we are a people. So, so at some point, you are likely to sort of merge those ideas
in partial ways in a PhD program. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But maybe with that, let's think about
what kind of thoughts you're going to, when one is deciding to PhD or not to PhD.
18:05
Yeah, let's take it. Let's take it from there. That is that is that you just stole my joke.
That's it for the show today. Thanks for listening and find us on x at Eigo de Science.
That is E I G O D E S C I E N C. See you next time.
