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Hey again, Len. Hello again, Asami. So, we just finished recording the 科学系ポッドキャスト
episode for the month that we're hosting. The theme is NOTO and, you know, just as an ironic
way, we talked about how, you know, different modalities of notebook taking affects or doesn't
affect the learning outcome, etc. etc. Yep. Summary, just take notes and try to be engaged.
You'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Short notes for that. But like, you know, in order to talk about... so
in that episode, we talked about three journal articles, one of which I read more thoroughly
than the others. And I have, you know, little bullet points of things that I noted as I was
reading. So this is typically how I take notes. Right. Yeah, of course. Where if I know that I
want to recall information from that particular paper, instead of just kind of highlighting,
because I tend to forget that, I prefer to write notes, even if it's super rudimentary,
bullet pointy, you know, not much story going on type information. Yeah. So I did that. And then
I naively thought, hey, you know, I have this notes up here, I can talk about it. Like,
I know what's going on here. I know what I want to talk about. But what I noticed while I was
recording that episode is reading my own notes, while talking to you. And also in like, kind of
this like explanation fashion where I'm trying to convey a new information to you. That was hard.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I imagine it was. Yeah. I mean, way harder. It was a lot on my poor little brain.
Trying to, it's like trying to read your own handwriting and say out loud. If your handwriting
isn't like neat fonts, it's hard to like, kind of deciphering activity by you speak out loud.
It was like that. It's like, all of this information, if I'm like looking at it silently,
yeah, it made sense. It's organized the way I think about these kinds of things. It's in
bullet points, study one, three bullet points, study two, and then three bullet points. Study
three, what it does, three bullet points. Who else study it, done, done, done. Very comprehensive as
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far as my usual notes activity goes. And if, you know, I were an actual researcher in this field
and want to go back to my notes to remember what this papers were about, does the job completely.
But when it comes to speaking about it based on my notes, those are a completely different challenge
altogether. And I think that's why some, and many actually science, kaikei potokestou people,
even though they are very likely familiar with the topics that they're going to talk about,
they still, many of them write daihon, like they write screen writing, screenplay style writing.
Ah, like they, they write out sort of like in advance for their sort of note and preparation,
yes, a type of screenplay version. Yeah, I think, you know, maybe some of them are more like bullet
points like I do. And some people maybe actually verbatim write what they plan to say. Yeah, okay.
That's really commendable. I always think that it's very commendable that they do that.
I was like, yeah, no, I'm not going to do that in my podcast. However, for things like this,
I see the point. I see you, you've come to recognize the sort of use for that type of
writing, right? Yeah. Okay, okay. I've only ever written daihon for a solo podcast, where I wanted
to share about what I read. So in order to do that, because I knew that there's no like bounce
off of information, in order to not lose the listeners, I like wrote it out and like talked
to myself to make sure that it still made sense. Like I put that effort into that episode. But
for this one, I was like, yeah, I know what's going on. Yep. And I didn't think I need it. But
damn, that was like a really mental gymnastic-y. Yeah, you've described...
Cognitive gymnastic, maybe. Yeah. So it sounds like to me,
you're getting at this. So the gymnastics is about... You used a good word for this, I think,
but I can't remember it. But essentially, taking what your brain has organized as thoughts in a
way that you can easily refer to, and converting it into, A, the spoken word, and B, the spoken
word in an organization that makes sense for the spoken word, which is not the same as writing out
notes. Not at all, not at all. And also, the added layer to the challenge is this,
06:00
my intention to convey new information, right? This is like sort of an explanatory spoken bits.
Yep. And that's also hard because in order to explain well, you need to already know like
150% what you're going to talk about. Yes. Which I thought I did, but that was just in my brain
and not on my tongue. You've just explained like the problem with giving any presentation for
anyone ever, right? Right. I mean, I've always... I don't know about Len, this is less about
notebook taking and more about presentation, but I, for the life of me, cannot follow my own cue
cards. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yep. So I know that some people like having the captions to each slides
that appears at the bottom of the PowerPoint, like a little note section where you can write things.
And that can pop up in your presenter style along with your style, but only to you.
Yes. Those types of notes. I know what you're talking about. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Whether it's in that format or like a good old fashioned cue cards way, you know, where I did
in like middle school, where I write down like what I write, what I'm trying to talk about for
each slide. Like I cannot do the speaking and looking at the same time. Right. Okay. Yeah. So
I'm always kind of impressed when people can do that. I... Okay. I was going to say, do you want
me to let you in on a little secret, but that feels like I'm somehow... Let's remove that.
I mean, this is your job. You present all the time. That's true. Yeah. So I'm happy to take
your wise words on this. Oh no. Oh no. There's been... I'm now in the spotlight. It's fine.
That's also part of my job, I guess. So the quote unquote secret, and I think everybody is fine to
know this. There might be people who just nail it. Like they know exactly what they're saying.
And they're able to run it all the way through to the end. Yeah. I really doubt there's that many
people that can do that. And the reason I say that is my own experience, but it also doesn't allow
for a lot of flexibility. That's true. That's true. And conversation is flexible, just like
the delivery of information is, where as an, you know, as an instructor, when I'm
talking about the topic, I know what I'm trying to get across to the students.
But I'm also attempting to locate moments where there is no connection to the audience.
Right. So that people can make... You make sure that in your delivery, there's a room for people
09:04
to jump in and ask questions, and things like that. There can be room for questions. There
can be room for simple looks that seem something is off. And there's also, even if there isn't
always room for the, say, like coming back and exchange, I'll give you the other part that I do
think is something really valuable for people who may, and I'm not saying this is yours necessarily,
but who may have this goal of like, absolutely nailing exactly what they want to say in a
presentation. And it came from a, you know, a voice coach guy. I'm forgetting his name at the
moment, right? But this would be a grand example, Vin something, and people can probably look him
up. And I like the way he puts this, which is essentially focusing on how, for one, the people
who are listening have no idea what you're going to say. Yeah, they don't know. And yeah, that's
I mean, that's, yeah, I think, I think I'm speaking more of the situation where,
so typically, right, like if I have to give a presentation of some kind, I have a rough idea
of the level of interruption I'm expecting, you know, whether it's like a seminar or a conference
or something like that, right? And because I know I'm bad at looking at cue cards, I try to
build in, build that, that kind of good organizational thoughts into the design of the
PowerPoint or the presentation. You do the same thing I do. Right, right. So I do this so that,
and I spend a good deal of time doing this, so that I don't have to look at the cue cards. Yep.
Yep. But like, that's after I discovered that I'm abnormally bad at looking and speaking
at the same time. Right, right. And this, which I thankfully did sometime in middle school,
like I'm really bad at doing that. Okay. Which is in a lot of ways, great, because it means that
you aren't prone to simply reading your stuff in order to try and deliver it, right? Right. Yeah,
I'm also bad at that. Which is great in terms of trying to deliver things, right? And that, yeah,
so that's, that's important to have that distinction, right? Because the, in your case,
when you recognize that you've, your solution, quote unquote solution, is to move away from the
fact that you'll be writing down text to begin with. Yeah. Right. Which I think is very useful,
at least for those of us that tend to communicate this way or tend to do well in that situation.
Not everybody works that way, right? Sure, sure. Use cue cards, use whatever flags help you to
keep yourself going forward, because usually the point isn't about, you know, nailing all the
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pieces. Yeah. I also know friends who do the cue carding with zero intention of ever looking at it.
Yeah, sure. But like, doing the activity of making the cue cards help them calm down the nerves,
and holding that cue cards while doing the presentation just kind of helps them feel more
normal. Soothe them, they feel well, maybe they feel more confident. They're probably very normal
people. But like in a less less anxious state, you know, less anxious, more confident. There's
a bit of soothing from having the cards, just in case. Yeah, yeah. It's a it's a technique.
I mean, it buys you time, right? If somebody asked you like a random off the left field questions,
you can pretend to look at the cue cards. And like, yes, I have totally thought about this.
Yeah, you can. There, there is a grand example of like, using the unknown of sort of your talk as
well to your advantage, which is another thing, right? Like, I've, I have done this in some
extent. And then it was, it was well demonstrated by this same sort of, you know, Vinguy where
just just be like, if you totally lose a train of thought, for instance,
right? Just just be like, you know what, this is this is quoting from the same guy. I, you know
what, I just thought of a better way to present this information to you. Just give me like two
minutes here. I'm just going to swap around some slides. Oh, that's very right. And so I've done
our move. Yeah. So I've done a few things where it's like this where you're like, okay, you know,
I'm starting to explain something. And I'm just kind of like, you know what, talk to your partners
for a little bit because because I want to see, you know, maybe you can help each other, right?
Like sort of set it up. And I'm gonna go and do something here. And I'll use that either for
a moment of slide swapping, right? Or like, you know, getting myself reorganized, or just to give
myself a moment because I feel like I'm over explaining and they need something, right? So
there's, yeah, you can just control that dynamic a little when you're delivering this information.
Oh, that's, that's gold. I love that advice.
Yeah, you know, I'll share maybe, you know, this, this guy's things as well. And
yeah, that stuff there, I've only seen, you know, bits and pieces,
because, you know, in in my time as a researcher, I have seen
very many examples where typically it's a grad student or like undergrads, you know, someone
who is like more junior presenting in front of people who are way more senior than them.
And they're it's already a nervous situation, nerve wracking situation. And then otherwise,
they're completely competent and like confident people. But that setup just kind of trips them
into this like, very anxious, panicky state, right? And if I had that technique in the back
of my pocket saying, like, hold on, I have a better way to present this to you. Yeah,
it's like, it gives you immediately the power to control the situation. And without,
15:06
like, losing your flow without, like,
giving an impression that you're nervous, because given the impression that you're nervous to your
listeners, your audience already, like gives them a chance to undermine you even further.
And, and this this method of like recollecting by like claiming, hey, I'm gonna recollect
intentionally, right? Yeah. Or not even that, like I'm gonna recollect for you is like a very
good power move to pull off. Yeah, it's, I think you nailed the sort of like intentionality and
and the power move piece, I would even I would attach with that intentionality, the sense that
you can remind yourself, the situation is kind of fine. But it looks, you know, I'm in control,
things are all right. It also says, it says to the room that I'm sort of working with you.
Right. And it reminds everyone that we're, we're in a space that doesn't have to be
sort of combative. And so there are spaces where this would be and this is why I'm like,
I'll talk more about, you know, where some of the, the nice examples, right that I'm drawing
from have come from and then from my own experience, but the, the ability to do that
gives you a little bit of relief. It also breaks some of the like dynamic at the moment with the
audience. And even in the situations where you might be like, but but I, you know, for example,
I don't I don't feel like I have that power or that ability to do it. Well, at worst, somebody
might like, try to question you on it. But that makes them seem like an asshole. Right? Like,
that they likely are. And they are like, you know, somebody would be like, you know,
hold on a minute, shouldn't you have like presented all this stuff? Like beforehand,
they're clearly an asshole. And the next thing that I'm going to say to them is like,
well, I mean, I could have. But in fact, I'm going to take five minutes and do this.
Yeah, yeah. And I'm noticing that you probably don't even need five minutes, you know,
all you need is like, a moment to sip your water or something to be like, you know,
break the tension, recollect, be in control again, because like, there is nothing more painful than
a nervous talk being derailed even further by some assholes who are making them even more nervous.
And it's like so painful to sit in the audience like that.
Yeah, yeah, it's Yeah, this. Yeah. Like, I, you know what, I in fact, in this moment,
I do regret pulling it into the the asshole story. Also, I, I hope Spotify and iTunes don't
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mind how much we're saying asshole. But we're not we're not advertising for clean content.
Good. All right. Because it, there's that, right? But that comes from my own sort of like
these concerns I've dealt with, which maybe others do as well about somebody questioning
who you are and what you're doing up there. And how this right, these sort of imposter syndrome
thing. Yeah. And when you're up giving a presentation, the best thing you can do for
yourself is be intentional with yourself and like what you want to sort of deliver. Yeah. So if
you can do something like this, do it. Right. And I think, yeah, I found some of the stuff that I
have definitely drawn on the most and what I found myself using and then finding that like other
people do this are a lot of like the same performative skills that exist throughout like
the stage, or like, I mean, just define it as performance, right? Right? Like maybe an
interview or something. Yeah. It's just you're, you're learning what the environment sort of like
allows, quote unquote, allows for, but you're not, the goal isn't to map yourself to the environment.
The goal is to understand, well, what's the presentation? Am I trying to engage with these
people, right? Am I trying to draw on something that they're curious about? Am I trying to
express myself and the information I have in a way that gets people thinking and asking questions?
You know, that's, that's where it comes from. The guy that I hinted at earlier was a magician
for a while. And like, you know, now he's become, I would say, one of the, you know,
speakers with masterclasses and all these other things as well, which is grand for him, right?
That's like, that's like a fantastic thing to have done. I have no idea about all the materials,
but the performance aspect from something that helps you connect with people.
Yes. Has a way to sort of help you understand the medium of connecting with people better.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and just like anything else, these are kind of like tricks you can save up your
sleeves and kind of, you know, it's, it's never too late to like learn. And like, I think it's
always good to like, hear these things. I find it pretty useful.
Yep. So then you can take notes on them, which gets us back to our main topic, probably.
Oh my God. Yeah.
Look at that segue. I'm such a segue master.
But I mean, Len, you, you did a terrific job segueing us out of the conversation and then back
into it. But I think we're done talking about notebooks, at least for this episode where we
stop talking about notebooks.
I don't even remember how we started at this point. Oh, well, no, it was your reading stuff.
I wanted to know about your note taking habit.
21:02
Oh, okay. All right. Well, I can definitely do that in the next one. How's that?
I promise. I pinky promise.
That's it for the show today. Thanks for listening and find us on x at
Ego de Science. That is E-I-G-O-D-E-S-C-I-E-N-C. See you next time.
