クララの愛の理解
I don't know if I'd call it an elephant in the room, but, you know, a story is a story, and coincidences can happen.
But like, Josie suddenly recovers, like, with brilliant sunshine?
That was also very odd to me.
Yeah, and so I don't, I didn't look up other people's interpretations yet.
I think if I were to make a couple conjectures, it would be like, either there is some unspoken
and I'd have to know a lot more about genetic modification.
So that like, hyper intense sunlight on a regular basis, you know,
stabilizes the things that they did to your body, right?
And just nobody knew it. And it was completely coincidence that Clara, like,
worshipped the sun and like, this sort of helped.
The other bit is that...
I mean, humans famously feel better under the sun.
Right, it's still helpful.
Not in the same way that...
Yeah.
Yeah, not in the same way that like, our electrons get, you know, juicy,
when we're under the sun, but...
Juicy electrons.
We still, you know, you know, our precursor to vitamin D's get converted into, like,
something else that we can absorb through UV absorption onto our skin.
Right, so this is, this is where I'm like, one could maybe do that.
I don't think we're given enough. So my...
Yeah.
My conjecture would be coincidence, and Josie survived what one might consider the, like,
the climax of the negative side effects of the modification.
And it turned out that her body, like, had fully assimilated it.
Like, within that timing, right? It was just, it was just like that poetic way.
That was my interpretation.
All of a sudden, at the end of the story, like, after Josie recovers, things got...
I had so many more questions, like, okay, now I'm engaged, but then the book ended.
Yeah, well, because then it was like, and so Josie recovered,
and they went about having a, like, generally, I wouldn't even say friendly,
I would just say, like, I wouldn't even say relationship.
Because at a certain point, it was like,
Clara just sort of stays in like her attic room or something
while everybody else goes about living their lives.
And she's just completely content with that.
Josie effectively outgrows Clara, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
As in, like, maybe, maybe, like, the darker things that they're hinting at,
and not necessarily confirming it, is that maybe there's a lot more sort of
abusive relationship between the artificial friends and the family,
or the kid they get companioned with, maybe more of that has been reported.
And that's why they, society as a collective, decided it's not really gonna,
they're not gonna continue doing this artificial friend thing.
Or they came up with a better way of lifting kids,
so that they don't suffer this kind of consequences.
Or they realized that lifting altogether is a bad idea,
and they decided to not do it anymore.
Or, like, none of that is like explicitly written.
But I think the sense that, like, I still get the sense that,
like, Clara thinks it was a successful and happy time at Josie's household.
I don't know if Josie would have, like, said the same
about the period that Clara was in her house, you know?
And, like, this is the sort of limitation of the unreliable narrator,
in that we only know Clara's side of story.
And, like, for her, you know, Rick and Josie's
forever and ever was, like, the best outcome.
And she fully believed in that.
When, in fact, it was, you know, childhood crushes at most,
and didn't really have any meaning beyond that.
But, like, yeah, I don't know.
Like, Clara, like, saying that she was happy at the end of the life
just, like, filled me with so much void of, like, I don't think,
like, this was happy for her because she's been programmed to do this
and programmed to experience the world this way.
This is not to say, though, going back to that discussion question
about, like, you know, did Clara understand love?
Like, I think she had figured out her own meaning of love and what that means.
I think her sense of experience of love is more of that of, like, in service
and maybe in the spiritual realm of things where she, like, you know,
felt loved by the sun when it was really just solar power battery.
But, like, I don't think I can fully discount, sorry, discredit
her experience of love either as a humanoid
because, like, we've been through the entire book of Clara
クララと人間関係の考察
to, like, you know, develop some kind of sympathy for her.
Yeah, yeah.
I thought when you mentioned, like, the void that you felt at the end,
my first thought was, like, a sense of sadness.
And not, like, because they're happy, I'm sad,
but because to me, I saw Clara's complete contentment
and satisfaction with that being her life
as a lost opportunity to have had more
or to have had, like, other experiences in there.
And now that I say that out loud, though, I also look at it and go,
all right, this is probably one of those moments
where you ask yourself who's to say and who am I to say
that a fulfilled, contented life that Clara lived
is not, like, the fullest of life, right?
For anyone, right?
Never mind if you've been programmed or not.
And I think some of that, maybe, some of the sympathy helps
because we got to see it from Clara's perspective
where there was learning and integration
and an attempt to reason out what was happening
and, like, be wrong and sometimes be confused
and, like, versus what I think the rest of the artificial friends
are assumed to be, which I'm thinking this
because I'm looking at the end again.
When Clara asked about Rosa, like, the person she,
similar model, right, had been in the store with her
and Rosa did not have the same curiosity,
was not looking to understand the world outside,
was locked on basically the one thing
that they would be doing the whole time.
And manager basically tells Clara, like, no, no.
Like, you know, it wasn't so much that she didn't like her teenager.
Don't worry about it, right?
Never mind Rosa.
Tell me about you.
You have such a special ability.
I hope your child came to appreciate it.
And so this stood out because I'm looking at it going,
the success here might be from the ability
Clara seemed to have to adapt a little bit,
whereas those that weren't adapting to the growth
of their quote-unquote child,
the child was probably more prone to seeing
this artificial friend as a junk toy
that doesn't, like, interact with you, right?
Or that doesn't, you know, this is maybe in the parlance
of, you know, large language models now.
This is a sycophantic chat bot,
but you become aware that it's sycophantic
and you get fed up with it just, like, yesing you all the time
and not really being able to feel anything.
And as a child, you just get angry and frustrated
and treat it like, you know, a servant thing
because you don't know what else to do with it.
So.
Right. I mean, it's true.
Maybe I think this comparison with Rosa
and I forgot the other model,
but there was a boy model as well at some point.
Right. They were called the B3s,
but I don't know if they had names.
Yeah. Maybe they, it's meant to sort of, like,
highlight that Clara was indeed
sort of like a special anomaly of the humanoids.
And she, either thanks to a fluke in her algorithm
or thanks to her relationship with Josie
that she was able to develop
in a more human type of interactions
and human existence and experience.
And maybe that's what she's happy about.
And you're right.
Like, you know, other bots may have become
sort of like a servant to the child
rather than a friend.
And because of the lack of this, you know,
genuine friendship between the teenager
and the artificial friend.
So it's, yeah, like, I think it's true
that Clara was a special case.
So it's like, you know, this is like where the,
it's like the, it's the one robot in Ex Machina.
Right. Like the one sentient.
Yeah.
Like the one that kind of starts the revolution.
A million and one.
This one happens to have had something
that allows it some like free thinking.
Right. Some click in the environment and everything.
And, but yeah, at the same time,
I'm also trying to remember all the human characters
in the book where they struggle to be emotive
or be caring the way Clara was able to.
Like mom, like Josie's mother.
And Josie is like kind of like a classic example.
Right. Like they care about each other in a way.
But like Josie constantly felt like
she was a replacement for her dead sister.
And the mother was not able to communicate
that that is not the case
because she was like fully processing the grief.
友情と変化の切なさ
She kept trying to like, you know,
she even think about, she even thought
about replacing Josie with Clara.
So like, you know, they're kind of like
the dysfunctional emotional relationship
between humans are like a stark contrast to Josie
and Clara's more genuine, I would say,
you know, caring friendship, you know,
however limited it might be.
And, but also kind of like
in like the classic Kazuo Ishiguro way,
I think the fact that Josie grew up, right,
and no longer is in need of Clara
is like a sad kind of like a bittersweet reminder
of that people change and friendship don't stay the same.
And when one person doesn't change,
it starts to not work.
Yeah, I wonder how much,
because like Clara essentially starts
to sort of slowly break down, right?
Like there isn't much of a lifespan
on the artificial friends either.
So even though she can sort of adapt and change
for a lot of the time after Josie gets better,
she's just sort of like in hibernation almost, right?
I mean, she's there, but she's not really there.
Also remember when like Clara thought
she like successfully killed the cooting machine,
she had to like spew out some like battery juice or something.
Yeah, something from inside her head.
And after that, she's like a little bit slower.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
So that doesn't help.
So there was a lot of that.
And I think Kazuo Ishiguro, like what he does really well,
at least in the books that I've read of his,
which is not everything,
is to give us a glimpse of emotional content
of what we otherwise perceive to be not emotionally relatable,
you know, because they're humanoids
or because they're clones in the case of Never Let Me Go.
And I think his writing and storytelling
shows us a possibility of them having a fully emotional life.
And which makes a lot of these characters' fate,
the ending bittersweet,
because the society still treats them like emotionless being
when the way Ishiguro depicts them
fully have emotions of all ranges.
And I still would say,
I think Never Let Me Go was a better novel
that explored similar theme.
Sure, okay.
I have not read that one, so I don't have any context.
Yeah, it's a little different, right?
It's not artificial human, but it's a clone of a human.
But like, that's sort of the idea that they have.
But, and the book came out before,
you know, all of these artificial intelligence stuff
was in the talks, in the zeitgeist.
So I think also hits differently when we have GPTs and robots
helping, like, you know, serving food at restaurants and stuff.
Like we sometimes see.
Like it's a different sort of time in the culture.
But I still think it was a lot easier to follow
Never Let Me Go as a book.
Like I finished it really quickly.
I remember that.
And the sort of the ending was that much more impactful
because I was engaged throughout.
Whereas Clara, I think, because Clara being sort of like
childlike artificial friend, right?
Like, I don't know.
I don't know what age she's set at,
but she to me sounds like she's set at like 10, 12 years old
and doesn't grow beyond that.
So it's like really hard for me to
continue to be engaged in a 12 year old's mind.
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
So, so in that sense, it was a difficult read.
But I love the idea that he's exploring like this concept of
the concept really of love.
I think of how, like, what does love mean in the world
where the boundaries between algorithm and machine and human
is like starting to blur, you know?
What does being loving to each other mean?
And maybe a question of like, sort of.
And I like sort of like a, like, from a very meta perspective,
I'm like amused that maybe this kind of emotional experience
is what people will continue to crave,
regardless of how much like mechanization
and automization that the society will go through.
We will still crave loving interactions,
caring interactions so much.
You know, which is like what we always had.
We always still do have.
It just, there are so many other noise that goes in between now
that I think a lot of us are struggling to tap into.
And, but it's, yeah, I don't know.
I think it's, it's funny that like, ah, we still crave love.
クララの愛と人間関係の探求
And, yeah.
Well, there's a question of like, so in, in the craving,
there's probably a question in here that says,
is there another way to receive love
in a way that satisfies or fulfills that human need, right?
Like, you know, is, and this is very likely person dependent,
environment dependent, situation dependent.
But like, if, you know, to some extent,
I'm sure there's an argument in here for like Clara's love
or the attempt to care in a form of love
is received by Josie as a form of love,
even if it's kind of murky and challenged
by Josie's own struggle feeling love
because her mother is sort of all like,
everybody's processing this grief
that hasn't been really, you know, worked through.
And like, so there's, there's layers on that.
But yeah, is it, is it that Clara could,
could have fulfilled that role?
Is it that Clara did fulfill that role
to some extent of seeking love?
Even if it wasn't always love,
it was like the knowing that somebody
is trying to care for you,
even if you don't feel it back at the time, right?
Even if you feel something else
and like all of the other artificial friends,
all of them, you know, maybe really failed to do that.
Whereas Clara was a step closer,
but only close enough for us to ask the question,
was it successful or not?
And I, and I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I think if you liked Clara in the Sun,
or if you're intrigued by Clara in the Sun,
I think you should definitely read Never Let Me Go.
Got it.
And also I feel like this is another thing
I've been telling you to look and read.
A Little Bit of an Earthquake.
Yeah, which is her, the movie Her.
Yes. Yes.
With Joaquin Phoenix in it.
I know. I know.
I was told by students again to, to watch that.
And I don't, I don't know why.
I think it's just that most of the time by evenings,
I like, I just usually don't have time
to sit down and watch a movie.
I think that's what it's been.
I really, I really should go out of my way
to like watch that though,
because you recommended it several times.
This one would be worth it, I think.
And really up the alley of what you like thinking about.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
It's within the, it's within that framework,
which is why it gets brought up every time I like,
you know, teach my particular class on some of this stuff.
So, yeah.
I'm curious to know what you think about the movie.
I'm curious too.
So maybe I'll, maybe I'll procure it
and see if I watch that this weekend.
I got a couple of things to, I still,
every time I say that I'm like,
where exactly do you plan on putting
that hour and a half, two hours Len?
You know, like where, where is that going to appear?
Yeah.
But I'm sure, I'm sure maybe I'll,
I'll find some time to do it.
Now that it keeps getting mentioned,
maybe I'll try to write it down and be like,
here is a movie to watch.
Like next time I go looking for a movie,
this is the one.
So yeah.
All right.
Please enjoy Clara and the Sun.
If anybody goes to read it,
if you have thoughts on Clara and the Sun
that we didn't cover,
send us a, send us an inbox message, right?
Yeah. I think the Japanese title is
Kurara to Ohisama.
All right.
Maybe a future sneak peek.
All right.
That's it for the show today.
Thanks for listening and find us on X
at Ego de Science.
That is E-I-G-O-D-E-S-C-I-E-N-C-E.
See you next time.
