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Hello Len. Hello Wasabi. Okay, so this is kind of impromptu part two to the 科学系ポッドキャスト
episode of this month. Yes. But, you know, when we say health, and even though 保健【保健】
certainly implies more of your like physical health status,
towards the end of it, I was like, oh, we didn't really talk about mental health.
And we just, we both take it fairly seriously. Yes. I can, I think we can say. Yeah. And so
let's give it some airtime. Yeah. Airtime is, airtime is one of, one of the most important
things, but also one of the lowest bars that I try to set for discussions about mental health,
which is just give it, give it some air. Talk about it. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe don't run away from
it. That would be a nice place to start from. So yeah. Yeah. Maybe, maybe if you started to be like,
eee, what is they gonna talk about at this point? Maybe stick around. Stick around. Maybe
the whole point is that we talk about it often, frequently in various degree of formalities.
And just get fucking used to talking about it. Yeah. That's it. Just, just get used to it. It's,
and it's okay if it feels uncomfortable. This right here is me being understanding, right?
Like it's okay to not feel comfortable with it at first, especially as I think we're about to talk
on. You've, you didn't have any type of, the only word that's coming to me is acclimatization,
but essentially introduction, right? You didn't have any familiarizing, becoming comfortable with
this topic as you might have with other topics, like the food topics way back when. Yeah. Yeah.
Like we have the five a day, the 30 items, the Sanju Himoku and all these other catchy numbers
and phrases associated with physical health stuff. Yep. I feel like we're sorely lacking
for those catchy phrases in a mental health space. Do you agree, Len? Yes. I'm, I'm certain
that we're missing it from my own experience in the past, right? When, when I was going through
these times, I do believe that it is still lacking now. And part of this is because it's,
it's a more intimate health related topic, right? Outside of something like,
03:05
bear with me listeners, many of you might not have this particular nuance, but food can also
be a sensitive and intimate topic. However, that very much could be, yes, that has been kind of
grabbed as a, as an okay to talk about topic, right? For, for most, and it's kind of enforced
that way, which is, you know, for, for better or worse, that's where that sits.
Mental health, not that, and it's, it is still also an intimate thing that takes time to,
to become familiar with. So yeah, it's insufficient when I was in my, my,
my younger years, so, so many years ago. Not that long, Len, not that long.
It was, I remember like it was last century. You've only lived for 30-odd years.
Don't give it away. But yeah, so, so, you know, back in like early 2000s-ish, right? All the way
up to like 2010-ish, the, the, the health-related conversations, from what I can remember, didn't
include really a mention of mental health. I think the most I probably received might have
been indirectly through, honestly, like literature classes, because books and reading and consideration
of like, you know. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Gatsby was super depressed. Hamlet was super depressed. Yep.
So like, yep. So that's where I remember those pieces, right? I don't, I at the moment can't come
up with any particular examples early on that were really mental health-related, and the closest
might be the existence of like high school guidance counselors, because they seemed, in my case,
high school guidance, yeah, guidance counselors, were, were somebody who had been hired,
I don't know if they necessarily needed particular qualifications. The idea was that they would give
you a little bit of like life advice. It might be playing the same role that- Tell me more about
what, what this guidance counselor did in your school, because we also had a counselor. Okay,
okay. But like, um, in our case, because of the schools that I went to, where like 99% of us went
to universities, they were called university counselors, and they help us with like application
processes. Right. And you know, for, so, so I guess this is like, they were kind of self-proclaimed
career advisor type person. Yep, okay, okay. That's what we call the guidance counselor is,
but I don't know what your school's guide counselor, guidance counselor were like. Right, um,
06:00
yes, so, and I was, I think with that in mind, I also was going to make a
connection to, or a parallel with, like the role that a homeroom teacher might play in high school.
There is, homeroom teachers are definitely not the same, uh, in the, in like the states versus
here in Japan. Uh, my homeroom teachers would not necessarily know me at all, or any of the
others in the, in the class. Um, right. It was like an attendance thing, and that was about it,
and then maybe you had them for a class later on, right? Right, you, you took a class photo with
them. Maybe? I don't even know. I, I don't remember. But, so the guidance counselor might
have more played this role. They, I think, as the core role they played was very similar to
these university counselors you mentioned, which is, I see, I see, they would, they would have
helped this, they did, or were supposed to help the seniors with university application processes.
I think, I would hope that part of their role was also if students weren't going
to university, they were helping them take alternative tracks as well.
Yep, yep, yep.
And this would depend on the school, right? Like, uh, my brother went to a technical school,
which we actually had some of these talks about over the weekend, and that technical school would
have had counselors helping to get you, like, into, you know.
To that application process.
Exactly, right, into those professions in some way, and so that was one part. The other part
that they technically could do is to develop a rapport or a reputation with the student,
like, where the student could come to them with concerns or troubles or challenges
of varying levels of, like, emotional difficulty.
Right, right, right, because university application process is a pretty unique
event in a high schooler's life where you are certainly old enough to have your own desire
of what you want to do, but you're also faced for the first time, like, maybe what your parents
want you to do, or, like, the financial constraint of what's possible to you, and it's not a decision
to take it lightly. It can be a very emotionally taxing period of time, and even though these
guidance counselors, maybe their job description is to navigate you through application process,
but, like, INIT has, like, a whole lot of emotional support and cheerleadering that's involved.
Yep.
So, yeah, I can see they can sort of work as, like, a semi-therapist almost.
09:02
Yeah, they work. They could be trying to fill that role, right?
And some of them do have that qualification sometimes.
Yeah, this is a question mark, right? It just depends on what the school has set the baseline
for, right? Like, what is the opportunity? I don't know what the regulations around it might be
either.
I don't think there is any.
Yeah, I'll do some poking while we talk here, but, like, this is the role that they can possibly
play, and that is the closest sort of model example of something that is touching on emotional
well-being at the same time as, like, navigating. It's not life-coach-y, but it's sort of. It's,
like, career-coach-y.
It kind of is, yeah.
But it's trying to be more human with you, right? Like, this is hard and these are...
And every guidance counselor has a different approach, and some are way better than others.
My guidance counselor, I did not use at all. I made sure that they signed off on my thing when I...
Because they would also...
And then submitted the documents on the day.
Yep. Like, that was... You know, they just had to sign things off, but...
So, yeah. I guess, in many cases, this is, like, our first encounter, maybe,
to have our mental health taken somewhat seriously.
Yeah.
That's, like, so late in high school. Like, did we have anything earlier on where, you know,
did we have any opportunities or exposures to think, explore about our, like, own mental health
in a somewhat of, like, a formalized education way?
Exactly. I can't think of anything before that. Yeah. I don't know if you had something in, like,
the earlier days, you know.
I see. I, luckily or not... So, I'm going way back when to, like, my almost elementary,
maybe, like, a first year of middle school, because that was the time I left Japan.
Yeah.
I was in this private school in Japan, and this is pretty common, and I don't know if you've seen
in this Japanese school system, but, like, there's usually, like, one school nurse per school,
and she can write you some kind of, like, a doctor's note, right?
Right.
To, like, excuse you out of the class and stuff.
Yep.
So, I remember, and I don't exactly know why or how, but there was a period of time I, like,
just, like, wanted to skip classes a lot.
Okay.
And, like, went to her...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
...claiming some fake illnesses.
Yep.
Headache, stomachache, whatever.
Yep.
And she would let me lie down for, like, you know, half an hour...
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Okay.
...and, like, write a fake doctor's note...
Nice.
...probably knowing fully well that it was fake.
Oh, yeah.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And she didn't say anything, just, like, gave me a space to be away from other kids in the
classroom, and I know that I was not the only person doing that, right?
Sure, yeah.
Because, like, there would be people coming in and out.
Like, I remember, like, she was a really kind of, like, a cool in-between person where she
was not an official counselor, but she acted like one, and her clinic, I guess, like the
nurse space...
Yeah.
...the clinic space...
Yep.
...was, like, a counseling room.
So come to think of, maybe that was, like, the closest thing to me giving a safe space
to prioritize my mental health, and I didn't even know that was what's happening.
Yeah, that's...
I mean, I forget the word I was going to use to describe this, you know, school nurse,
but, I mean, absolutely kudos on them for just giving that space, right?
Yeah.
Either being aware of this or not, but I would bet that they were aware of what they were
doing.
They're like, no, no, this is a space that I can give.
This student, this young, you know, growing human being needs a moment.
I'm not going to, like, you know, sort of shame them or guilt them or, you know, discipline
them for coming to me and, like, making up...
Right, exactly.
...you know, a fake illness, because this is the way, at this time, to get out of the
situation that they need some space from.
Yeah, yeah.
So great.
Anyhow, yeah.
Yeah, so we were going to, like, jump off this discussion based on national health education
standards, like the Shape America effort thing.
And we were comparing the 2007 sort of, like, standards.
These are just, like, guidelines of, you know, what should be expected in terms of, like,
health space in school system in America.
And, you know, we started off this conversation because we couldn't find anything mental health
related in either 2007 version of the standards or the 2024 version of the standards.
Yeah.
And, like, I'm kind of surprised that, like, you know, when mental health, I feel at least
from 2007 when I was in high school, like, it feels like it's a lot more open space to
talk about it.
And I don't know if it's to do with the age and the era of the world or if I just grew
15:02
up and became more comfortable talking about mental health with others.
But, like, I certainly would have probably benefited from, like, even learning languages
around mental health, like coping mechanism or, you know, boundaries or things like that
nature, right?
These are words that I learned well after I was 25.
And, like, I kind of wish I knew earlier.
It probably wouldn't have hurt.
I certainly wish that I had known a number of these things earlier.
Yeah.
So I will echo and reinforce that, that I think things like not just the words, but
the words are key because you can then identify what you might be experiencing, right?
Right.
Like, even if you don't really know the real life example of what these things are or
behaviors are, if you have been sort of implanted the vocab, you know, it just becomes that
much easier to connect that word with the actions or behaviors you're seeing either on
yourself, on others.
Yeah.
Like, you know, it's just easier to recognize that.
And because a lot of the times it's me realizing, like, oh, was that gaslighting?
Like 10 years later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, right.
This, we may or may not have had this on podcast, right?
Where suddenly some of those awarenesses that you just mentioned have appeared, right?
Where you're like, wait a minute, hold on.
Maybe that is coping, right?
Maybe that is.
Yeah.
Really hard to recognize, especially if you don't have it up front for what those things are.
And especially if it doesn't get regularly aired, right?
Regularly brought out so that you can then think about it.
Because if you mention it once, as we've noted, a lot of stuff we don't remember from these
classes, right?
There's no specifics that stick there.
And in order to have something consistently aiding you, it needs to be part of not like
the absolute everyday conversation, but it needs to be part of semi-regular conversation.
And it needs to be more accessible.
It needs to be reminded because like, you know, not all of these conditions or names
or glossary of mental health terms are not even relevant to you, right?
But like, yeah, again, just being repeatedly exposed at some periodic fashion, you know,
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just helps in sticking that information and also, and therefore recognizing when it does
happen in front of you.
Yes.
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
And, you know, why didn't we start earlier?
Why did I have to self-teach myself?
Like after I was, you know, not fully grown up, but like, you know, was legally adult.
Well, the answer to that is that in order to have described those things early on, you
would have to have gone past the idea of, I don't know, if you talk about these things,
you're, fill in a derogatory phrase for talking about mental health, right?
Fill in a phrase that insults the person for talking about mental health.
That's what you would, that's what was being run up against, right?
I guess.
And, you know, I can only imagine that was worse for you as a man and in the boy circle,
as opposed to me growing up as a girl in like, you know, girl frenzy circle.
Because we just didn't know the words for it, but we weren't afraid to talk about it.
Not with everyone, of course, with select few, but like there was definitely no shying
about sharing how we feel.
I mean, it's kind of, that was almost like a social code for like, this is how you connect.
Right.
If you didn't have a crying session with your best friends, like, are you even best friends?
Yeah, yeah, fair enough, right?
That's, again, like, that's another extreme, but like, that's kind of how I felt.
Yeah, took me till grad school to get that idea.
So, yeah, like, I mean, I'm not saying that idea is wrong, but it did, I remember it gave
me a different kind of pressure as a teenager, because I didn't feel a whole lot of comfortableness
sharing, you know, even with my closest friends sharing, or didn't even know how to articulate
what I was thinking, a couple of that with like, my English inefficiencies made it definitely
difficult.
Speaking about not having like, the terminology or the phrasing, right?
The literal language.
Like, actually not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so that was a different story.
But like, yeah, oh my god, as a guy, like, you know, like, hormonal teenage dudes, any
mention of anywhere near mental health was easily dismissed.
I can imagine.
Oh, yeah, there's some, oh, you're, you know, oh, you know, guys, I'm just feeling a little
sad today.
What are you, a girl?
Yeah, exactly.
That was an example for anyone listening.
I mean, look, everybody gets messed up as a child.
21:00
But like, the bit there is like, the person doing the harassing of, you know, insulting
someone for sharing emotion is going to be just as traumatized, but in a different way
as the person who was just insulted for sharing emotion.
So, you know, work on that.
I certainly hoped that after 20 years-ish later, the world knows how important that
is, and to incorporate that in some kind of guidelines seemed like not a huge rocket
science, you know?
Yeah, I've had great conversations with, you know, people who are students, who are like,
say, high school level, that when I introduce some of these things, they're like, oh, and
it's not as if it doesn't like, you know, this is like bounce off them, you know, if
it's going to bounce off someone, it's going to bounce off them anyway.
But like, at this level, and before, you know, younger, there are ways to introduce an idea
to give you something to kind of hold on to, right?
No, we cannot introduce everything.
Right.
And it's never going to be perfect.
And I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but there is an interesting
observation from a very top level perspective, where like, you know, as we continue to add
to the plethora of information and understanding available to us, you have to make more and
more, like selective leaps to bring students from, you know, no information to functional
information, right?
So like, there's a current, a constant running game to get everybody up to pace.
But with that in mind, I think this is one of the really important ones.
Because as you, as you had said, this idea of, instead of, as a result of not being aware
kind of of yourself and that emotional state and how you might be being affected and then
affecting, right, sort of the world around you, and hurting people and hurting yourself,
like, there could be more space for, you know, experiencing the sadness and the strife and
the struggle of growing up into a larger adult human that would go better if you had some
of the tools available to you, right?
And then you can like, choose to go out of your way to talk to people, and to perhaps
then talk to people that can help you more if you so choose to, but not out of absolute
need.
Right, right, right, right.
I mean, you could learn all of these and still just not put any useful actions into it, which
is fine.
That might be just part of your growing up arc.
And that's the arc.
You know, sometimes that needs to happen.
And it will happen anyway, you know?
Like, no amount of knowing the mental health lingo is going to help you or save you from
24:06
No, you'll still have to struggle, right?
Yeah, yep.
You will still struggle.
And I'm like, 100%, put my money on it, right?
I'm just saying, like, instead of making that like a five-year suffering, maybe make it
into a three-year suffering, right?
There's, yeah, yeah.
I don't have anything else to say there.
That's exactly it.
And most of all, most of all, I think the reason why I feel like it needs to happen
at earlier stage is because I feel like it's really unfair that by the time we're adults,
we're expected to handle it on our own, paying our own monies to get the therapist and, you
know, do the thing, do the work, right?
Why should that work only be available to people who can pay for it?
Of course, like, there's definitely benefits to paying for professional help, but some
of the basics really shouldn't be behind the paywall.
Yeah, I think that's the bit.
The basics shouldn't be behind the paywall.
And the paywall in this case is, like, if you choose to go and get, like, the sort of
additional engagement for your own development, right?
As, like, a human who wants to have this, like, active role in their development.
You can do this in other ways, but you would go out of your way to get, like, this professional
trained version of help in a similar way that you might go out of your way to, like,
have your own lawyer, like, or to have your own, like, financial advisor.
Yeah.
And, right.
Or your personal trainer or something.
These do, as you say, they require payment.
So, like, there requires you as the person, you know, either functioning to obtain funds
to then supply, right, like, you know, these tools.
But if, and I hope that this is most people's goal, everyone should have a continuously
increasing, you know, standard of living that is, like, the norm, a couple of those things
would be just as readily as people would be, like, we need to teach more about, like, how
to deal with money.
Well, yes, we also should probably help people deal with being people.
And that would be mental health awareness so that they can navigate, say, the stressors
around something like money, which is really the driving factor there.
Like, yeah.
27:00
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
So, yeah, I mean, I think we both agree that earlier introductions to mental health education
along with, you know, health, health education.
Triple thumbs up.
Doesn't hurt.
Absolutely.
And should be both thumbs up.
And yeah, why are we doing this already, basically?
Yeah.
All right.
I think we've done a rather satisfactory job of giving mental health the airtime that it
deserved.
So, yeah, yeah.
Kudos on all the nurses out there.
Yeah.
That's it for the show today.
Thanks for listening and find us on X at Eigo de Science.
That is E-I-G-O-D-E-S-C-I-E-N-C.
See you next time!
