クリエイティブな人生の追求
This is Reinamoto's podcast, The Creative Mindset.
Hi everyone, welcome to The Creative Mindset, a podcast about what the future holds at the
intersection of creativity and technology. I'm Reinamoto, the founding partner of I&CO,
a global innovation firm based in New York, Tokyo, and Singapore.
Art was my very first love when it came to subject matters that I was interested in when I was young.
From the very early days in kindergarten all the way to college, I was deeply interested in art,
so I chose it as my academic study at the university.
When I was in college, I decided to mix my artistic interests with emerging technologies,
and that's what led me to a career that I have at the intersection of creativity and technology.
Andrew Zolti, known professionally as Breakfast, is someone who does this for a living,
but as an artist. We've known each other since our 20s as we were building our respective
careers in the same industry, but he decided to pursue pure art by making a business out of it.
He started to focus on it full-time around 2008 during the financial crisis.
Now an internationally acclaimed artist, Breakfast is a data and kinetic artist whose work centers
on transforming real-time data from the natural world into digitally controlled kinetic artworks
that tell stories. He has a studio in Brooklyn with around 15 engineers to invent and build
kinetic sculptures for museums, corporations, and private collectors around the world.
He considers himself the lead singer and songwriter of the band he leads called Breakfast.
Today's conversation is an in-depth introspection of pursuing a creative life.
We chronicle how he transitioned from being a commercial designer to a pure artist, how he
built his practice as an art practitioner and a business owner, how he protects his intellectual
property, his vision, and the goal as an artist, and finally, a very yet profound piece of advice
for anyone wishing to pursue a creative life. So let's get started.
アート作品の購入について
The tiers, the three tiers of types of work that you do, the most simple tier is these
editions you said, and can anybody buy them? You know, if somebody was a collector and he's
interested in, like, how do you, how do they buy them? Yeah, no, I don't discriminate at all.
Yeah, no, I mean, anyone can buy them. They're not, they're not very cheap, unfortunately. Yeah.
So they do start, as of today, I mean, we have some that can get down to about $20,000. It's
about the cheapest thing I sell. Although this year, I'm trying very hard to create pieces that
are less, although the whole tariff thing is thrown that for a loop. But yeah, I mean,
people like, I mean, I've, I don't know, the people who own my work is kind of mind-boggling
at this point, like Whoopi Goldberg just bought a piece recently. No way! Yeah, I mean, there's,
I can't, I got permission to mention her name, but a lot of people, I can't say who they are.
Sure, sure, sure. There's a lot of, like, big tech people, unsurprisingly, that own them. Yeah.
But, but yeah, I mean, literally, if you write an inquiry on our website, we're gonna come back.
You know, I have a lot of galleries around the world that I work with, not in like any kind of
exclusive way, but like people, you know, galleries have bought the work and they sell it in different
parts of the world. And then, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's all over the map.
Do you, do you feel, I mean, you know, you've been doing this now for close to at least this
アートのマーケティング戦略
pure art part of your work doing for about 10 years or so. How do you approach,
this sounds kind of shallow, but at the same time, I think it's a necessity, which is how do you
market yourself? Like how do you market your work? And especially, you know, carrying 15,
20 people all the time, it is a, and I don't mean this in a negative way, a burden or
responsibility that you have as a studio owner, and that isn't a light responsibility to carry.
So, and you know, you are at the forefront, you're the front man, you're the singer of the band,
so to speak. Yeah. So how do you approach that aspect of creating demand and awareness?
Yeah. It's, it's funny you say the singer of the band, because that's often how I,
I try to explain it is that in the art world, I wish that made sense to more people, meaning
like there are no bands. I mean, there are some studios and there are collectives, but they're
not, it's not an entirely accurate statement where a band is like, I write all the songs,
but they wouldn't sound the way they do without the band that I have. And it's also become a bit
funny and just over the last few years, you know, we've, it's something I have mixed feelings about,
which is like, essentially today, my name in the art world is Breakfast. Like the way that you have
Cause or Banksy or something like that. Like essentially I introduced myself,
hi, I'm Breakfast, which is a weird thing to say, but it's, it's accurate. And in the sense that
for the people who buy art, it makes the most sense to them. Like who is the one conceiving
the idea? And the honest truth is people don't react very well to the idea of buying art from a
company. So it's, it's a lot of just like weird terminology. So anyhow, so these days it is sort
of, you know, yeah, like I'm Breakfast, I'm the artist. And then I have this team that, you know,
I wouldn't be able to do this without. Most of, most of the awareness, I guess, of my work is
almost all through Instagram. I have to say like that is where, you know, it just, like, like it
does, it just gets shared everywhere and passed along. And I know I end up in a lot of, my pieces
of end up in tons of architects proposals saying, Oh, let's do something different, things like that.
But it is yeah, you can't do like any sort of traditional marketing per se. So it is a lot of
yeah, it's, it's a lot of putting, you know, I do try to get pieces out in places that are ideal
for people, you know, I got a piece like outside Dumbo house, the Soho house in Dumbo and things
like that, where I put that there. Oh yeah, I know that. Yeah, it's like the amount, whenever I talk
to almost anyone in New York, they've seen that piece. And it's like, and it, you know, so like
I do a lot of sort of interesting things like that. But I'd say Instagram is, is where things
have spread. I don't know if that's exactly what you're asking. But no, no, no, no. Yeah.
Yeah. How are you? I mean, this is the nitty gritty of it. But like, are you personally running
your Instagram, your breakfast Instagram account? No, you write in, you write breakfast, you're
talking to me. Yeah, it's something I've tried. I've tried to bring on people to handle the social
media, to even shoot our videos. I've gotten a little bit better on the video front. But the
truth is, is like the artworks, they're a little complicated. There's a lot to them. Yeah. And I've
realized that in order to tell the story of the artwork, oftentimes I have to shoot it myself.
ワオピースの創造プロセス
So then like, because like, it doesn't make sense to people. And I literally will change what the
piece does. Like I'm changing the software in real time to make it do something so I can get
the right shot to tell the right story. So there's a lot of stuff I'm still doing that
everyone looks at me. It's like, this is, they say it's not a good use of my time, theoretically,
but yeah, I haven't been able to find a way to hand it over to anyone. But yeah,
the other two layers that you talked about, using, you know, these mediums or one of these mediums,
create a commission piece. And then the third layer that you talked about was a fully custom
piece that you create from scratch. Yeah. Are they coming to you to talk to me through the
process of a museum or a company or an organization coming to you and starting? What is that process
like? It's so much simpler than everyone thinks, including the people coming. Well, meaning that
it is, I don't know, like, you know, an airport will reach out and they'll, you know,
to be honest, they're like, I think, I think if I really call it for what it is, they want something
that is just going to wow people. Like there's most of, I get a ton of emails where the subject
line is like, wow piece, right? It's like people writing and they're like, we need a wow piece.
So that tends to be, and so they come and they honestly, a lot of times, sometimes they see
a particular thing I've done and they're like, we want something like this. But a lot of times
they're like, we don't know what we want. We just want a wow piece. And then my response to them is
just, is honestly just talk to me for 15 minutes. Tell me everything about the space. Tell me about
what's important to you. Tell me what success looks like, you know, for the wow piece.
And then I will, you know, in all honesty, a lot of times I will do that concepting for free.
Um, I've learned this over the years in a weird way. I not always, and I do it less and less
because there's so many people reaching out, but I've done it for sure in a lot of ways, because
I don't want anyone to feel like they own whatever I present to them. Because if I go
and concept a piece, I'm going to, that piece is something I've conceived. I might've done it for
your airport, but like I might be using you as the thing, but that doesn't mean if you don't buy it,
that's, that's a piece that I created. And so if I just do it for free, they can't own the thing.
And so even though there's a, you know, there's an impact there. I'm, I'm, I'm pretty careful about
like, I won't take money if it means you think you're going to own the thing I present.
Right. Right. Once you, once you get paid, they own it.
Yeah. I mean, sometimes that's what they think. Uh, and so I try to protect myself from that,
but yeah. So, I mean, at the end of the day though, it's, it's, um, you know, I'm always
trying to tell a story. I mean, the thing I haven't touched on is almost all my pieces use
real time data. So like, whether it's climate change data, like things that are happening,
like the wind moving outside or on the other side of the world, or solar flares on the surface of
the sun, like things like that I use to influence the movements of the pieces. It's not like,
it's not, uh, pre-recorded or animated in that way. It's all dynamic visualizations. So I'll
often talk to them about themes that are important. Is it sustainability, whatever it
デジタルマーケティングの重要性
might be to try and find what that data story is that I'm going to tell them. Um, but yeah,
but it's, it's generally a pretty quick conversation. Have you, have you ever been
rejected an idea? Uh, oh God. Yeah. Well, I have to say, Oh, I there's, I mean, there's definitely,
I have a pretty good track record. I come back with one. I generally only come back with one
idea. Um, and I think I, I can't really think of anything right now where it's been outright
rejected there. I mean, men, very few of these actually go through though. And that's almost
entirely budget related because if you're sensing the theme, these things just cost a fortune.
They take a long time timeline or budget. Um, you know, sometimes people come back and they're
like, Oh, it looks like we had three months instead of a year. And it's like, well,
it just can't be done. Um, so, but generally, you know, they're coming to me. I try to get,
I'm able to usually read them and get a sense of what is important. And I'd honestly say,
this is where the whole digital marketing background, you know, like knowing what makes
a brand happy, like it actually allows you to go create an artwork, like an understanding that
side of things, like where I'm not going away and just making the thing I want. I'm going to make
the thing I want, but I totally get that. They need to be happy and it needs to tick boxes for
them. So I still use all those same tools to make sure they feel like, Oh yeah, this makes total
sense for us. Like I'm going to make sure that's, you know, that's important. Yeah. So that,
that background, having worked at a, uh, an agency and they're working for brands.
Yeah. Yeah. It comes in handy. You can, you can layer on the, dare I say the rationale for
something where I imagine other artists might come and be like, this is the piece. Isn't it great?
And like, I sit there like, look, I'm going to make the presentation that they're used to.
I'm going to show them why this makes sense and what the benefits are. And I'll add in,
you know, I'll give them that proposal with all the things they can then take to their boss
to make sure the boss, you know what I mean? Like I know the layers that they have to go
through to get something approved. So I try to give them those tools and that.
プロジェクトの選定とコラボレーション
Yeah. Yeah. I'd also imagine that you would have to say no to a request or a project,
or once you start a project request, how do you decide what to say no to?
When they want to put a logo on it, which is constant, constantly, like when people,
I mean, that's the problem. A lot of people, a lot of people still reach out.
I'll put it this way. You want to hear something crazy in 15 years of doing this. I genuinely
think all like every single big agency, medium agency has reached out at some point, hundreds
and hundreds, if not thousands of agencies reach out. I've never done a project with any of them.
Not once. And it's because that's not me turning them away. It's me saying, it's me saying to them,
look, I like it's because they're trying to use me and my studio as a production house for their
concept. And they want to, or there's honestly even other artists that reach out and they want
to collaborate. And it's not that I say, no, I just say, look, when I collaborate with another
artist, I'm going to put in, I'm going to do the majority of the work here. Like I know what you're
アートコラボレーションの重要性
asking. You want to paint on my bricks, right? I'm going to make this bricks thing. You know,
it's going to look like I'm going to do all the work. I'm going to do 95% of the work.
It's going to go out there. If they're a bigger name than I am in the art world,
then all the press is going to say, this artist just did this really cool kinetic piece. And
somehow my name will get lost in it. So like, I'm pretty much just doing a protective thing where I'm
like, look, this just, as long as this is like an equal collaboration and like the world will see
it that way. And you know, I can make sure that it's essentially, it's just easy for someone to
kind of slap things on top of my stuff and completely own it very easily. So I just have
to walk that line really carefully. What was an example of collaboration with another artist that
was good for you? I've done one with Lorenzo Quinn. It's not, I wouldn't say it's my most
favorite piece in the world, but like he, it works well because it's a, so what he does is he casts
his hands. Like he's known for, I don't know if you've ever seen, like he did a piece in Venice
years ago with like these massive, you know, three-story hands that come out of the canal and
like go up, I don't know. He does all these pieces like that. And he did one that's holding a big
stainless steel heart. And then I put one of my pieces kind of in the center of that heart.
And so it's just very clear who did what, you know, and I'll be honest, even then there's plenty
of press that were like, Lorenzo Quinn just did this kinetic thing. And I'm like, but it's enough,
like his artistic approach is unique enough. And mine is unique enough where it was a good
balance. And honestly, I had this conversation with him and he got it. And so it was important
as long as the artist really gets it. It's like, look, this is a collaboration. Our names
are always together on this and it's always presented to the press and everyone else like
that. It's just, you know, it's just protecting. I just need to be careful because it's,
it's just, it's very easy to just like take one of my pieces and someone else to kind of
unintentionally end up kind of taking credit for it all. So yeah.
プロジェクトのコストと推定
Something like the pearl that you mentioned, and I hadn't actually seen, I've never seen the real
thing because I've never been on the Royal Caribbean cruise ship. Is that where it is?
Yep.
Yeah. And you said they took four years.
Yeah.
So something like that, it's so custom and it's so specific that you might not know how
much it's going to cost or how long it's going to take.
Yeah.
Right. So, and again, we could turn a whole new episode just about that, but in a nutshell,
what, what was that like?
I mean, it's, I'll split that into two things. At this point we have a, we're pretty good.
We've done so many of these pieces now and so many of these projects that we can really estimate
them. It takes us a couple of hours and we can, we can be with pretty close within striking
distance. The pearl is on another level, but we essentially padded it to the nines as best we
could. And even then I didn't make a dime on that project. And I went, I went into it kind
of knowing that just because again, if you take, even with the, you know, had a big budget, but
you know, literally millions of dollars in, in parts millions of dollars, many millions of dollars
クルーズ船の革新的なプロジェクト
in parts. And so whatever's left, and now you spread that over four years, it kind of all just
goes away. But I went into it knowing that it was such a monumental, unique opportunity
that it would benefit, you know, my work in the studio in big ways. But I mean, the approach for
something like that is, you know, you do a whole feasibility study, you gotta do a prototype,
you know, so we're doing like real prototypes at the very start to kind of get a sense of where the
hassle is going to be. But I mean, that one, yeah. It's really hard to encapsulate what that
took. Hundreds of people involved. The thing holds up the decks above it, like it's structurally part
of the ship. And so you're working with the architects and, but yeah, I mean, it's that one,
you just, you get really, I mean, that's where we built a lot of our core team. And we, you know,
we hired the right people for the job, engineering wise, and it's a massive undertaking.
Yeah, just to visualize for the sake of the listeners, it's within a cruise ship,
and there's a staircase in the middle, and I'm looking at the image. It's this humongous dome,
that's about 15 meters in diameter, maybe three, even like four stories high. And inside that
sphere, are these tiles, kinetic tiles that move in different directions, you know,
sort of your signature style, this kinetic sculpture that you've become known for.
Did they have the dome idea? And then they wanted you to think of what to go inside the dome?
How did that? Yeah, that's exactly what it was. Yeah. So the architects, it's actually,
it's the first time a ship's ever been built, where it has this massive open space in the middle,
it's very unusual to do that. And so the way, so they did that, and they had this idea for this
big kind of dome sphere shape. And, and so that's literally what they did. They came,
they came to me and said, we have this, we don't know what to do with this thing. We know it's
got to be crazy. We don't want to like skin it in LEDs. And so what would you do with it? And so I
came back with a, I came back with a couple ideas early on. They ended up being a little bit too
expensive. Then COVID happened, which really hit their bottom line. So in the middle of this like
process where they kind of were on board and said, yes, let's do a kinetic piece. Like we'd gotten
past that path and that was just honing in the right one. And then, so then given all the stuff
going on with COVID, we kind of had to come up with a new, different direction, which is what ended up,
what it ended up being. But yeah, yeah. And early on, you know, we were trying to see if we could
actually do the exterior as well as the interior. That was, but it was just, yeah, the cost was,
was pretty monumental to say the least. I know you've been quite busy, you know,
you were in Dubai not too long ago. You gave a big presentation at NVIDIA's AI conference.
What's next for you? So this month, so speaking of the mediums as referencing before,
um, something that I've been like working on for a long time is taking my pieces outdoors.
This has been like, it's a, it's a hurdle. It's really hard to explain how big a hurdle this is
like taking, you know, cause I take a ton of pride in us, the pieces that we're making. We build them
like satellites, like something you, you don't get back. Like it's not like a consumer device.
屋外アートの挑戦
It's gotta be something that stands the test of time. So to go outdoors with that is a big deal.
So for the last year and a half, we've been working and engineering a medium that can go outdoors.
And so later this month, um, it's in a couple of weeks, I want to say within like three or four
weeks, I'm going to bring that outside for people to see for a few days in Brooklyn. Uh, it's,
it's kind of half test, half photo shoot, half let people come see it. Uh, and then the piece
has actually been commissioned by someone in Greece. So it's going to be, uh, installed in
Athens. So yeah, it's not going to be publicly accessible, unfortunately, which is a problem
with a lot of my pieces. It'll be in a private residence, but, but the, um, more, more so than
the piece, it's the underlying infrastructure and medium. Then like we now can, I can design
these outdoor pieces that I know are really going to last, whether it's in Dubai heat or in the
freezing cold of Alaska. Uh, that's, that's the immediate next step. And then, um, I don't know,
there's so many, there's, there's so many things going on. I mean, at any given time, there's,
I don't know, anywhere from, we, we have about 150 to 200 conversations going on at any given
moment. Oh, wow. It's really a lot. And to be honest, only maybe 1% of those end up happening,
uh, which is frustrating and hard, but, um, that's kind of the nature of this, this beast.
So just to wrap up this conversation and just one or two more questions, but
I mean, 1%, that's a pretty depressing narrow path. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what, what keeps you
going? Uh, that's a good question. I mean, I will say like, if I look at, I mean, once I get off
this, this call, um, you know, the things, the projects are, they just keep getting better.
Like the opportunities just keep like, I don't know, they're more and more of an
honor to even be asked. They don't, even if they don't pan out, um, every year we're getting
invited to, to just conceive something for places that you're just like, this is crazy. This is
crazy. Cause it, cause my ultimate goal, honestly, is to, I always say is to build the modern day
Eiffel tower, meaning, uh, not literally, but meaning like create the monumental piece that
is kinetic and moving, like something that feels like the world that we live in. But you look at
it and you know, you look at the Eiffel tower, you think Paris, right. It is iconic, uh, in that way.
And I think we don't make, we don't make things like that very much anymore. Are there buildings
these days? I think there's an opportunity to build something of that sort. That's what I'm,
I'm excited to head towards, but yeah. And then the last question is anybody who wants to pursue
a creative life like you did and you do, um, whether they are in college or graduating from
college, but you know, somebody who's early in their career, what would be your advice?
I give some before, so I'll give a different, a different one. Um,
I, I remember in college there being a moment where I learned, I looked around, I was in a,
I was in a very small kind of, it's called visual communications is like graphic design,
advertising and all this stuff. And it was a very small group of 17 people.
And I remember this moment of looking around and realizing,
they're all just talking to each other and they're all like kind of complaining about the project we
集中力の重要性
have to do, or they're like going to go and get a coffee. And I'm like, if I just put my headphones
on and just start going at it, like, what can I get? How much more can I get done? And like,
I think this is a common thing, like, and maybe this is a theme I've touched on this a few times,
but I just remember, like, I guess my advice is stop. Like it's, it's so easy to distract yourself
more than ever before and just not put your headphones on and focus. But my God, it's like,
if you can just teach yourself to do that, if you can, like, take watching your friends around
you go and just like be sitting there and talking for 20 minutes. And if you're doing,
if you can just stay focused and keep working during that, the net effect is so significant.
Like what you're gonna be able to get done, the more you're gonna be able to learn, you're gonna,
you're gonna zoom past everyone around you. It's just naturally going to happen. And I actually
think it's a bit of a, I don't know, I don't, I don't want to say like, it's, it's, it's just an
unhealthy way to be like, if you're really kind of entrepreneurial and want to like, just be doing
something on like everyone around you, I think learning to focus, which is not easy. It's much
harder today than it's ever been, you know, like just mastering that. And I guess maybe I would
say is take that as fuel. When you see people not focusing around you, like take that as a signal to
like, I'm going to, I can do this even though they can't. And if you teach yourself to do that,
you're gonna just, you're gonna, you're gonna find more hours in the day, which is just gonna
constantly add up. It's compound interest in your creative pursuits. So that's what I would say.
That's a, that's a great piece of advice. And even for somebody, you know, who's built a career in
this industry for quite some time, you know, two and a half decades or so, focus is, is an ongoing
topic and an ongoing challenge, you know, to your point with so many distractions that we all have.
And I just happened to be reading a book called Deep, Deep Work by a professor named Cal Newport.
And what it comes down to is just, he's famous for not being on social media at all. And just,
and methodically approaching what he calls deep work. So, yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned it.
And it, even for me, it, it really resonates. Yeah. It's not easy. I won't say that. No, it's not.
And it's, yeah, it's unfair when a lot of your business requires you to, exactly, do this direction
and do like, you, you need to be on all these things and yet you're going to be better if you
weren't. It's yeah. Right. It's hard. I hate it. Constant battle. If you are listening to this on
Spotify, there's a Q&A field. So please do send us your questions and comments. And if you like
our podcast, please leave us a five-star rating. We're so grateful. I hope you enjoyed this
conversation with breakfast as much as I did. I'm Reina Moto and this is The Creative Mindset.
See you next time.
