双方向キャリアの必要性
This is Reinamoto's podcast, The Creative Mindset.
Hi everyone. Welcome to The Creative Mindset, a podcast about what the future holds at the
intersection of creativity and technology. I am Reinamoto, the founding partner of I&CO,
a global innovation firm based in New York, Tokyo, and Singapore. Today's guest,
David Charles Rodriguez, is a Sundance alumnus and Tribeca Award-winning documentary filmmaker.
He has also maintained his other career as an advertising creative director.
In 2022, one of his first documentaries for Netflix, Neymar, The Perfect Chaos,
became the most-watched docuseries globally, making it to the top 10 in over 50 countries.
He has also been a successful creative director for over two decades, working for brands such as
Apple, Adidas, Airbnb, Google, and Nike to name a few.
Creative directing, concepting, writing, global campaigns, and producing content.
If you haven't listened to part one of my conversation with David on how
writing has become a crucial part of his personal development and professional life,
I've known David for close to 20 years and making things together. So I have a very fond
memory of David, not just as a friend, but almost like a younger brother. We may not be related
by blood, but we are related by profession and by our passion for creativity.
In part two of my conversation with David, we dive deeper into how we as creative professionals
can stay relevant as we build our careers, as technological shifts change the industry we work
in. So let's get started. We've known each other for a long time and we've had deep philosophical
creative conversations, especially when you and I used to work together more than a decade ago,
but it's been a while that you and I have or having this type of conversation.
How do you think about yourself as a creative professional and your relevance as a creative
professional? Yeah, no, that's a great question. The reason of sustaining both is out of necessity,
right? And one kind of feeds the other. One can be fed more creatively, the other can be fed more
financially and sometimes vice versa. Now they interchange depending on the type of project
and what you're doing at the time. And in the irony or funny enough, it's been 10 years since
I've been doing this kind of dual existence. And initially it was a way to build myself into
full-time filmmaking. But then what I learned is one, the industry of filmmaking, there's these
giant gaps of time, which can be filled in many ways. But the other, the real answer is that I
still really love advertising and I've done it for 20 plus five, 25 plus years, and I'm really good
at it, but it really fulfills me in a different way. So why not do both? And they end up feeding
each other creatively where in developing films, I have that marketing brain on my side,
helping me shape them, helping me set up the pitches and even tell the stories in a way that
will appeal to a mainstream audience, right? Because that's what we learn in advertising.
How can we talk about these in the case of advertising these products, but in the case of
film, these difficult subject matters, and how can we express them to as many people as possible?
And that's where the advertising work really helps inform my film work. And then my film work really
helps inform the advertising work where in two ways, right? One way, a lot of brands and companies
now are really striving for authenticity and for how can we capture the real, the realness of,
of the consumer or of the experience. And now I'm trained to capture that realness and that
authenticity in a very quick way. So that's one aspect. And then the other aspect is how to be
entertaining, right? Because an ad you're, let's just speak traditionally, obviously we both,
you know, mostly do digital stuff, but in a traditional sense, you even online, you buy ad
space, right? So you're buying the consumer's attention. When you make content, you're fighting
for the consumer's attention against the best storytellers in the world. So it really over
indexes that muscle, that entertainment factor that I then bring into, into advertising.
Yeah. How did you use your marketing advertising hat to make a topic like that more
appealing to A, the investors and to B, the audience?
Yep. There's a couple of ways. First, speaking to a niche audience. It's the same way when you
do a guerrilla marketing campaign, right? You have a brand, you have limited resources
and you're speaking to a core audience first, but you really want to broaden that audience.
So to do that, we did two different things. One in the PR of it all and how we're speaking about
the film and even the teaser of the film and the marketing materials, they're all focused on the
cost of being a true artist, the cost it takes on your life. What are, what, how far are you willing
to go? What sacrifice are you willing to do to live for your art? And even sometimes die for
it because Jen died three times in her life was pronounced dead and revived because of some,
クリエイティビティの危機
because of health issues, but some because of her art. And we're living in a moment right now
where if we don't compromise, we can't make art. It's almost impossible in music and film,
obviously in advertising, but creativity is living a moment of crisis right now. And
bringing someone's story like that to the forefront, I think is really inspiring.
Has nothing to do about someone transitioning. It has nothing to do about some of the more extreme
avant-garde performances they did. It has everything to do about being true to yourself
and giving your life to express your art. It's the, what is it? The human expression of magic
is really what Jen lived their life doing. And how can that inspire other people?
So that's like one, one chapter. The other chapter in the film that I think people really
gravitate towards is the family aspect. And there's a huge, like the shocking of all the
shocking things of Jen's art in life, the most shocking thing in the film for both Jen's fans
who didn't really know about it to the broader audience is the fact that Jen was a great dad
and raised two incredible daughters and they're in the film. They're a part of it.
And it's that anti-artist, anti-rockstar story, right? It's always the same narrative, right? You
were successful and then drugs put you down and you're estranged from your kids and you're trying
to make amends with everyone. Usually the journey is the same. And Jen was the opposite of that.
Jen started out very extreme and did things to get their message across and create attention.
But once their kids were born, they truly shifted into making work and creating
things that brought unconditional love to the world and into her own family.
And I remember there was a friend of mine's father came to the, one of the Tribeca screenings
and their father works in the finance world, is a very conservative minded person. And they
walked up to me after the film, very emotional and saying how much they loved it. And they were just
so enmeshed in the love story aspect of the film. And also in this kind of new role model that
hasn't really been told before of how to be a parent. So that's an aspect on how to leverage
the stories and the pieces you have to make it for a broader audience. And also just to be
surprising. And then from a more tactical standpoint, in every key market that we're going,
we're creating a tribute party or a concert. We're bringing special people that have a wider
audience to do Q&As. We're finding ways to appeal to a wider audience, whether it's a younger
audience or just a broader audience, to get people to see the film and talk about the film.
So for example, I'm going to Brazil right now, and we're doing a tribute party. And the lead
singer from that band Lady Tron is going to DJ, he's doing a special set. My friend Chris Holmes,
who is Paul McCartney's DJ, he created this beautiful art installation and a special DJ set
for the film at Tribeca. We did a tribute concert there where we mixed all these different artists
from different eras performing music for Jen in Jen's tribute. And now I'm releasing a book
of the final interview I ever did with Jen two weeks before she passed, which is the heart and
soul of the film. So all of these are different. If you put your marketing hat on, you could say
it's a 360 guerrilla campaign. And most of the screenings we've had so far have been, if not
sold out or almost sold out. That's how you're able to get people there is through these different
pervasive ways of telling the story. Yeah. Some people are even scared to stay in advertising
because it's an industry that's not necessarily growing. But you are very deliberate about
staying in advertising because it gives you the creative reward and satisfaction.
And when I say reward and satisfaction, I don't mean winning award and those kinds of things,
but emotional satisfaction and professional satisfaction that you get from producing
something for a commercial purpose, working for a client, working at an agency, working for a client
広告の重要性
and making sure that what you create helps them become successful. Why do you think there's still
joy or satisfaction or meaning in the advertising side of your career?
Yeah, no, it's an incredible question. I learned, especially in the past 10 years, that
there's a need of something that I feel like I'm very good at doing and that I really enjoy doing,
which is giving the brands a soul and really humanizing them and truly making them a part
of the communities that they want to play a role in. So that aspect of giving a brand a voice
and a soul and just a place to exist in the world and then how it can participate and grow the communities it plays in
are probably the two areas that I enjoy the most doing and that I feel most fulfilled
in doing. And that can exist in many forms, right? It can be through a campaign, it can be through
a brand book, it can be through a social activation or in real life experience.
But last year, I was able to work on a really on one of my favorite sports brands with one of my
doing a creating their brand vision and their work for the next few years of how they're going to
behave and inspire the future of soccer players, of football players. And being able to influence
that and to bring good energy and to actually create something where I feel like millions of
people will benefit from in a positive way is something really meaningful to me. And I still
truly believe that advertising and brands have a power to do it in a way that entertainment doesn't.
The same way that entertainment has a way to connect with people and that advertising doesn't,
I feel like advertising has a way to connect and build community in a way that entertainment
doesn't. And then when those two worlds come together, like in the case of Gay Chorus Deep
South, where it was an Airbnb initiative that enabled them to not just show the film and sell
the film to Paramount and be successful in that entertainment space. It also allowed them to have
a dialogue and to participate in communities in the South and in queer communities around the world.
Where their access was limited. So that's like the dream scenario when all of these things collide.
And truth be told, I'm still looking for the next one of those.
So let me, on purpose, take a cynical point of view. Try to uncover why you think
that this distinction that you made between advertising as quote unquote funded by brands
and corporations versus entertainment, which is also funded by entertainment purely for the
sake of entertainment versus advertising for the sake of cooperation. But why do you think
there is a place and need for advertising to exist when there's so much content and there's so much
entertainment out there that some of it may be professionally produced, some of it, and quite
frankly, perhaps the majority of it these days is not professionally produced. These kids, random
people just taping them, filming themselves on their cell phone. And it's good enough for a lot
of people to entertain content that's good enough for a lot of people. So why do you think advertising
has that, there's a need for that? I think we in the 21st century and this late stage capitalism
that we live, for good or for bad, we create a relationship with the things that we own or that
we have on our body, whether it's our phone or the shoes on our feet or the jacket that we buy.
If me and you or whoever works on those brands, if we're able to give that a purpose, and when I say
purpose, I don't mean social impact, a reason to exist in the world and a point of view that helps
open people's minds and helps them just create a better world for themselves. I think there's a
I think there's a really powerful connection through product. I think product is really
where pop culture is in the 21st century. Obviously, if you look at who are the pop
stars of our generation, they're the tech leaders, they're the sneaker designer,
they're Pharrell Williams is more beloved for being at Louis Vuitton than for his music.
And I think, and that's the answer to that question of the power that advertising can have.
So if not us influencing that in a positive way, then it will be someone else and maybe it won't be
as positive or as good as it can be. And then from the entertainment standpoint, I think what it does
is it helps you deepen your emotions. It's a mirror to yourself. It's a mirror to society.
It's a more, at least in the traditional sense of entertainment, right? I'm not talking about
TikTok yet. I'll get into that. I think it's a more, it's a broader, like it's a bigger overview
of what culture means to you and what, and then I think social media and then a product are a
more intimate version of that. So we get closer to you and we're able to become a part of your
universe in a more tangible way through advertising and through product. I put them in the same
category in this sense. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think about your own relevance as an individual,
as a professional, as a creative? Absolutely. There's, I would be lying if I said no.
What I've been thinking about a lot lately though is how to, and I know you get it, but how can the
industry understand the value of having someone that exists equally in both worlds? So for example,
I was one of the, maybe not the first, having a brand create original content. The Gay Chorus
Case Study is one of the most successful ones, or at least the one that carries most meaning in that.
It's in the permanent collection of the Academy Museum now. I don't think any other
branded content is in there like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's not.
And although what that did though, is I ended up getting a lot of calls in the entertainment space
and it really helped my entertainment career, but I got zero calls from the advertising space.
They didn't understand the value of it. And now that there's new companies that are bringing
キャリアの視点
the entertainment and branded worlds together, they're just going after the big name Hollywood
directors. They're not going after the people who actually are the very few people in the
industry qualified of bringing brands and entertainment together in a seamless way.
And I find that just very short-sighted and I quite, I don't understand it, to be honest.
Interesting.
So I guess it's relevancy as this new model, right? This new way is something that's been
top of mind to me that quite honestly, I've just been very busy and not able to tackle,
but at the same time, it's something that I'm curious about. And I think I would like to
understand it and find some sort of resolution around it.
Yeah. Do you think that even after so many years of being in the marketing industry, but also
now in the filmmaking creative industry, two part question. One is, do you think,
can you see yourself doing this for the next 20 years? And two, if so, or if not, why?
The reality is I only think three months in advance.
So I won't be giving you a completely, I'll be honest, but not accurate answer.
I can share how I feel now about that question. I think filmmaking has a more,
it's a slower burn industry. Things take longer to happen, but there's more longevity
to what you do. So I see that I think in the next 10 years,
I will still be dividing my time and my passion equally. There will be years where one thing will
be more than the other. The dream is to be able to either form a company or find a partner that
can put me in these situations where I can do both at the same time. That's really the dream.
But then if you think of 20 years, I would prefer to still do, let's just say it would go to 80%
long form entertainment and maybe 20% short form entertainment or advertising or
Harvard, whatever it is by that time, like who knows what it's going to be.
But I would never want to lose it or abandon it. But given the,
the, how each of the industries behave and just how the career time lengths of a director,
producer versus a creative director exists. Yeah. It's more logical that it will bend.
It will bend towards the entertainment side with the over, over the course of time.
Cool. Thank you.
重要な教訓
That was part two of my conversation with David Charles Rodriguez, a Sundance alumnus
and Tribeca award-winning documentary filmmaker and an advertising creative director.
Here are my three key takeaways from this conversation with David.
Key takeaway number one, it's okay to have more than one career.
Number two, the importance of joy in your work. And number three, don't be cynical.
Key takeaway number one, it's okay to have more than one career, especially at the same time.
It's not that many people that I know who have been able to maintain multiple careers at once.
David has been quite strategic in doing both advertising, which was his first profession,
and pursuing filmmaking gradually over time. But it's essentially 50, 50 of his time that he
spends on both careers. And he's able to balance and juggle and successfully navigate the two.
A career like this still is unusual, I think, today, but increasingly, more and more,
as the world becomes connected, the world becomes remote and hybrid.
I think this way of working could become the norm 5, 10 years from now, where many of us may have
a full-time job or may not have a full-time job, might have multiple gigs, or even a side gig that
becomes our main gig. So key takeaway number one, it's okay to have more than one career,
especially at the same time. Number two, the importance of joy in your work.
During my conversation, I asked him why he maintains two different careers.
While they might be related to each other, because both professions that he has involve
writing, he writes campaigns for brands and companies, and he writes treatments and stories
for films, and particularly documentary films that he produces and directs. Writing is the
common thread between the two, but they are distinctly different fields, and you have to be
recognized. You have to have a career in each of the fields.
The answer that he gave me was actually simpler than I thought. He said,
well, because I like what I do in both fields, it's not that I don't like one thing,
but because I like the other thing, that I'm keeping this thing that I don't like.
And he finds joy in his advertising gig that can be difficult because you are at the whim
of the clients that you work with, and because you're getting by the clients,
there are certain things that you have to cater to, that you have to respect in terms of the
client wishes, even if it's against your creative vision. And that's a difficult balance to strike,
especially in the advertising marketing creative industry. But still, the reason why he's kept his
advertising career for over 20 years now is because he likes what he gets to do in the
advertising field, and he finds joy in it. And this may sound like a simple truth,
シニシズムとクリエイティビティ
but it was refreshing to hear from an old friend who's been in the industry for such a long time,
and he still finds joy in what he does, even after 20 years. Which takes me to point number
three, don't be cynical. Advertising particularly is or has become a cynical industry. A lot of
people have gotten out of it as advertising as a professional industry has become less and less
relevant, I would say. But the conversation with David reminded me that cynicism can kill creativity
and cynicism can kill a lot of things, including passion, enthusiasm, love, and the meaning of what
you do as a professional. It's an easy thing to think about, don't be cynical, but it's actually
as we gain more experience, as we become older, it's a natural and organic tendency that we have
as people, as humans, to be cynical towards either the work that you've been doing, the profession,
the organization, or just life in general. But it's something that I think we have to remind
ourselves every so often and tell ourselves, don't be cynical, because once you get on the slope of
cynicism, it's a very slippery one and it's difficult to climb back up. So to summarize, the three key
takeaways from my conversation with David, key takeaway number one, it's okay to have more than
one career. Number two, the importance of joy in your work. And number three, and perhaps this is
the most simple, but most important point, don't be cynical. If you're listening to this on Spotify,
there's a Q&A here, so please do send us your questions and comments. And if you like our
podcast, please leave us a five-star rating, we'll be so grateful. I'm Reina Moro, and this
is The Creative Mindset. See you next time.
