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Hello Len!
Hello Sunny!
Hi hi, this time we are doing our monthly installment of 科学系ポッドキャスト
and this month, the month of July, is hosted by ひよこ研究社のサバイバル日記さんです。
I don't know if you've listened much to my past episode, but they've actually came to
our episode.
Well, one of them, ハツさん, came to my podcast to share about her study abroad experience
in Switzerland and I also went to their podcast and spoke a bit in Japanese.
This was in response to one of their episodes.
They had an episode about being a woman in STEM field and I basically essentially responded
saying it's 2024, how the fuck is this happening still?
I'll bleep that out.
I mean, you know, healthy swearing I think should be okay, but I just don't want to open
the episode with that, you know?
A good bleep to start the episode is, you know, certainly a new way to open, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know if I appreciate that aesthetic.
So anyway, they are both biology researchers, biology realm, one of them is doing big animals,
one of them is doing very small animals and that's how they say it in their little tagline
and they're about our age actually and it's kind of interesting to hear the perspective
of two women working in Japanese academia scene and, but without that too, they just
seem like, you know, sound like a nice bunch of people, so...
Yeah, that's awesome.
I'm glad that you had the chance to sort of exchange between the podcasts.
I am revealing that I have not listened to all of the previous podcasts, but...
No, no, I don't expect you to, but there is one that I'm talking with her mostly in English,
I think there are two episodes of that and then there are three episodes of that, of
me in their episodes, their podcast, talking about how things are different or not so different
in American universities and whatnot.
Right.
Anywho, so they are hosting it and because the two of them are friends, they've decided
this month's podcast theme to be friendship, yūjō, ne?
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That's why.
I was wondering what the origin point for this was when you first told me, so now...
Yeah, so I've shared this with you like a couple weeks ago, that this is the theme of
the month and of course, like a diligent podcast host, we have gone to do extensive research
on friendship and what it means to us, which in reality translates to about five minutes
of trying to remember what paper I was going to talk about and spending 30 seconds to locate
it via Google Scholar and sending it on a chat to you.
Look, there was at least some thought in the many weeks ago when you mentioned it because
you knew that this existed, we just, you know, had to go find it again, so like...
But it's a very interesting topic.
I think that many of us can talk in a different sort of angles and different perspectives.
So I'm curious to hear what other podcasters will say about this theme.
So because the whole point of this monthly installment is that several of our few of
us who sort of self-identify as kagakukei podcasto, we like discuss all in the same
topic.
But of course, with a little spin of each other's own interpretation of the topic.
So yeah, curious.
I think this is like pretty open-ended questions topic.
Yep.
I would agree.
I'm curious to see how they go about it and how many choose to do sort of human-to-human
friendship versus human-to-other sort of friendship, as was out in there, right?
Exactly.
So, yeah.
So maybe without further ado, since we did spend a grand total of five and a half minutes
on looking up the paper, but actually I've met this paper, as in like, I've heard of
this concept first a few years ago from my ballet teacher, actually, referring to us
the ballet school students.
So we're not like little kids who go to ballet schools at a specific time every week.
We're just all in open class, adult ballet class.
So people come in when they can, people won't show up when they cannot.
Everyone's understanding is that everyone is there for their own sort of enjoyment first
and foremost, and it's up to each student to decide how much you want to push or how
much you want to stay in a blissful, joyful experience side of things.
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But inevitably, in like relatively smallish town, I guess, but also in a big town as well,
you start to see the regulars.
You start to see people who sort of make a conscious choice to come every week, make
it a point to come every week at the same time, and then you start seeing the familiar
faces.
And ballet studio is a funny place where you are very vulnerable there in that you are likely
doing something that you're not inherently good at because, you know, our anatomy is not
made to do ballet and none of us.
It hasn't stopped us with anything before.
Exactly.
And we're all trying to do better, but I think we also fail in a lot more obvious way than
you can fail, let's say, in your desk job.
When you get the choreography wrong, it's immediately and instantly visible to everyone.
I see what you're saying.
On top of that, you will be wearing like leotard or like leggings, something that is form-fitting
for the purpose of training, but also that could be kind of vulnerable as well.
Like, you know, you're not used to seeing strangers in swimsuit every few days of the
week, essentially.
So that's also kind of vulnerable, but we see each other at such frequency sometimes
for many, many years to the point that even though I have no idea if this person is married
or not, I know maybe so much about this person in so many different other ways.
I know that she is a right turner, not a left turner, or I know that she prefers jumps over
adagio and things like that, which are equally important information to those of us who do
dancing.
So we were talking about one of those days, like, it's so funny how I and this other girl
have been in the same class for like three years, and I didn't actually know that she's
also studying PhD in the same university that we went to, like different department, but
same university.
You would think that these things will come up first, like you would think that these
things don't take three years to find out, but because what we were there for was not
trying to find out what they do outside of the studio to the point that it took us three
years.
So on that topic, my dance teacher was saying how she read this New York Times article about
how weak social ties, like ballet acquaintances, like maybe barista at the coffee shops that
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you stop at, or restaurant owner that you frequent, not even restaurant, like a convenience store
staff or something, right, or a receptionist at your university or your workplace, like
things like that.
These social weak ties and how that's more strongly correlated to the well-being of a
person than more sort of invested strong ties, like a friendship, like a family bond.
So the New York Times article cites specific paper, but I found out there are a bunch of
other studies that are sort of investigating this topic of, and we all know homo sapiens
are social animal.
That's how we managed to survive all these many years.
And so we clearly thrive better in sort of sociable, socialized setting than isolated
setting, it seems.
I mean, different sort of definition of what that means, right?
But at the DNA level, at the sort of archaeological level, we seem to prefer being with other
people generally.
But what's interesting is these weaker ties are somehow, in some measurements, I'm not
saying in all cases, right, under certain circumstances, under certain measurements,
seem to have stronger impact than strong social ties, like the people you work with, or like
the people you actually have meaningful interactions with.
And I thought that was super interesting.
So I'm gonna cite this paper, and also maybe share the New York Times article on the thing,
on the show notes.
But yeah, what are your thoughts on this strong ties, weak ties thing?
Yeah.
I am super grateful that you shared this particular paper and the New York Times bit.
I spend more of my time than I would probably be able to account for thinking about ties
between people, because I think human relationships are really important.
And a younger version of me did not spend a lot of time considering those.
So this, I think, makes a lot of sense to me.
So I also was just scrolling a little bit to see the little summary abstract.
I think you're looking at the one by Huxhold, or, okay.
And so one of their observed results is what you were talking about in this idea of, quote,
a greater number of weaker ties was associated with, and I think this is an interesting piece,
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having more close ties over time and, and I'm paraphrasing, more strongly predictive
of the sort of positive changes that came with that.
So that, to me, it kind of makes a lot of sense, especially when we think about having
spaces, places, activities like ballet, right, that let us go try things, be a little vulnerable,
entirely vulnerable, not way out of a safety zone, but enough so that you start to be able
to connect or see something about a person that maybe you don't see, especially when
it comes to like the workplace.
You know, if I'm thinking about the people that I work with, I do believe that it will
be kind of rare without me pushing to create those extra situations to learn more about
them for me to actually get anything out of it.
But just by being there and being present, those I would think count as, you know, relatively
weak ties, things that say, I get along with you well enough to have sort of comfortable
short exchanges, it can feel a little supportive.
You know, you can get negative versions of, I think, weaker ties as well.
But if you have a space that gives you generally positive input, then you yourself will probably
benefit from that space, right?
So that seems to make a lot of sense to me.
This also, I think, is connected to a lot of the discussions about creating spaces like
that, which is something that is observed as being lost in particular, and I mentioned
this a little before in response to you sharing these with me, these sort of, what was it,
loneliness and there's another word that they like to use now as well, isolation, loneliness
and isolation, right?
So I had found, and I can share this with you as well, the U.S. Surgeon General's advisory,
which came out last year, which is now defining, at least on the sort of federal health scale
here, loneliness and isolation as an epidemic.
So this advisory packet, you know, does a lot of, you know, little research collection
pieces and stuff, where, in summary, they are saying we need more places and ways to
build community around anywhere, or anywhere that you happen to be, and I think that community
aspect ties well to your observation of like weaker ties, because having a community doesn't
mean you know everything about every person in the area.
It just means you are socially kind of aware and involved, and you know that you can go
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to these spaces for a little bit of connection and support, you know, in different times,
right?
Interesting.
It's also interesting that they're using the word epidemic, you know, and people have used
epidemic for a lot of things that's not transmitted by virus, like, I don't know, obesity, gender
dysphoria, all sorts of things, and there's so many problematic things associated with
it.
But I do think, and I don't know if epidemic is the right word, but I do think that in
this modernized society where you can work from home 100% of the time, for some people,
there's very little sort of opportunities for these weaker ties to exist unless you
consciously look for it, right?
And it's like, we thought that less human involvement means less error, or maybe cheaper
labor costs to provide a certain type of service.
And we have sort of developed the technologies that we have today, under that kind of guiding
principle of like, how can we minimize error, right?
And that kind of, I think we're at the brink of realizing like, do we remove humanity altogether?
You know, in pursuits of this technology, like, do we remove humanness from all of this
activity that we used to enjoy?
We just didn't pinpoint out as a factor, because we never had to make it a parameter.
Like, it's so weird to be parameterizing humanness.
And you've also got the ones that go towards things that don't really have a consciousness,
like being friends with the Mars rover, for instance.
Because that was a thing, and a lot of people were upset when they started talking about
dismantling these rovers.
And in part because of the way that it was expressed as, I think they had, you know, memes
and images of, you know, Mars reports in first person from the rover, right?
Like, you know, making it as if it was...
I mean, people get upset having to throw away their like, vacuum robots, you know, Roomba
type.
Like, they like, get upset about having to buy a new one, because the old one is broken
or something.
The old one is broken, and I developed an emotional bond with it.
So yeah.
So yeah, this is all very fascinating, but I do like to force us to go back to the original
topic.
Yes.
That's why I was like, we have deviated.
Now we can come back.
No.
So like, on this weak ties and how maybe that's relatively difficult to find in today's society
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unless you consciously go out for, how many different types of weak ties can you name
like, right off the bat?
Oh, okay.
All right.
So based on what I would call weak ties, I would include co-workers as weak ties.
Okay.
So co-workers would be one.
I think all weak ties can become strong ties, but it's like, co-workers is one.
It has a potential, yeah.
Let's say like, so frequently visited locations, we can break that down a little further.
You mentioned ballet.
So like, hobby spots, like hobby locations, right?
For me, that could be climbing, right?
I see people and like, there are ones I go with specifically, but they're also ones that
I start to see just over and over again.
Right.
Just like familiar face.
You might not even know the name of them, but you just know that, oh, it's the same guy
again.
Exactly.
Yes.
You would also get this at places like, oh, people with pets, probably those that like
the dog parks.
That's probably a, that's a good example of a space like that.
What else?
Maybe favorite coffee shop type deals.
I don't do much of that myself.
I mean, I'm asking you in personal, like, personally, do you have, like, how many weak
ties can you, like, do you think you have in your life?
Do you have a favorite coffee spot or like maybe favorite lunch spot where you like always
recognize the same auntie serving or same barista serving?
I okay.
I don't really, I will share that there is the very weakest of ties, but it is very sweet.
And I do feel like a positive boost when this happens.
The little supermarket next to me has a, you know, sort of a, you know, a slightly older
woman.
Yeah.
And she's sweet and definitely, like, recognizes me right when I come in, you know, and like,
it's never gone more than like a sentence or two, you know, like, you know, like sort
of, that's about it.
And that's about all I can handle sometimes because I just want to buy my groceries.
And I think that's a perfect amount of weak ties.
Yeah.
It's like, that's, that's it.
Some of those, right, are maybe the weak recognized ties.
And I could say the same with maybe some of the climbing gyms where people, and a few
of them, I, you know, now I've gotten to know some of their names, but I don't know them,
but they're all like, oh, okay, you know, come on in.
Like, yeah, it's fine.
You know, we know who you are.
Yeah.
You, you have the advantage of being relatively easy to recognize in your current environment.
Like, there's not a lot of people with your length of hair in Tokyo that looks like you.
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So.
That is, that is white and bearded and long haired.
So.
Exactly.
Exactly.
In the heat of summer as well.
You know, that's a choice.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a regret more than a choice, maybe, but you know, every year I say maybe I'll cut
it and I don't.
But yeah, those are, I think those would be some examples in mind.
Yeah.
And you mentioned that it's weakest, but it's very sweet.
And I think that's the whole point of these weak ties.
Like if you sort of perhaps ventures too much into this weak ties, there is a potential
for developing real conflicts or at least like a sense of breaching the boundary from
either one of your sides.
Right.
And which is hard again, to negotiate, especially if you're an acquaintance, especially when
you don't have that much sort of deep interactions but like you can sort of stay in a weaker
tie.
And if you both agree that this stays as weak ties and it could be just a hundred percent
pleasant interaction and that's it.
It's just, it stays right there.
Right.
Yeah.
I think you, that's a perfect observation.
I really like that because it says, well, it talks about the risk, which is not inherently
a reason not to develop stronger ties, but it does point out a benefit of those weaker
ties that just say, Hey, I recognize you.
I see you briefly in this moment as another human being.
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, I mean, I I'm probably forgetting to mention so many of those that happened
in my life, but yeah, something like the janitor is an example where like, I like only recently
got to learn her name and I've been working in the same place for eight months.
And that's because she decided to share some like souvenirs from her travel or something
to the rest of the floor.
Oh, that's awesome.
Okay.
I know.
And, and that's when I say, Oh, thank you.
And I wanted to say, thank you, insert her name.
Right.
And then I, that's when I realized I don't know her name.
And so, so things like that I think is yeah, very nice and could be very sweet.
And I think the nice thing about it is relatively low maintenance, right?
Like it's not like get all nosy if you don't see them for a few weeks and if they show up
again, a few weeks or months later, you're not going to be like, where were you?
You're just going to like, do things that normally the way you do with them or without them just
acknowledge each other kind of thing.
And that's, that's, there's something nice about it too.
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And I especially feel this way when you're living in a city, like in a relatively new
city as, as both of us do.
Right.
And in, in a city where we don't have like sort of built in community when we arrived,
you know, it's, it, it was so nice, nice to me when let's say like the, the Thai restaurant
guy started recognizing me and, and, and that was so nice.
I didn't expect that kind of, you know, interaction and make you feel less, um, I don't know, less
lonely is not the word I, cause, cause I wasn't feeling lonely, but, um, no, you might not
have been feeling lonely, but it would be, it's a situation that to connect this back
to that, like seeing you moment, you know, they're not, you're not being seen as like
who you are inherently to the deepest of levels, but somebody is saying, Hey, within this social
sphere of things, I recognize you, right.
I sort of am aware of you, which you don't have to be lonely to essentially be less low,
like this less likely to be lonely.
One could maybe consider.
Maybe, maybe it's the, the combination of like acknowledgement and the specificity, right?
Like you're acknowledged not as a passerby or not as just another customer in a restaurant,
but you are acknowledged as somebody.
And that feels nice too.
I think all of us.
And, um, so, so I think that's, that's the benefit of sort of weak ties, I guess.
And, um, I think the older I get, the more I appreciate it.
And I don't know if it's because I have been constantly moving to different city every
few years that I feel this way.
Like every time I moved to a new place, I feel like I appreciate these kinds of transient
human interactions.
And because I know that I'll be leaving the city in a few years, or because I know that
I don't have to try that hard to sort of maintain this kind of low commitment interactions.
But, um, but, uh, probably also was a lot less aware of my surroundings in general.
Like, like I did not really care or was not observant enough for others.
And it was just too busy in my head and didn't really realize when like somebody needed a
help or something.
And now with enough life experience of being helped by others in very unexpected way, people
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have helped me when I had like a giant bags and costumes of instruments and things like
that.
And, you know, it was nice when somebody offered to help.
So, yeah.
So things like that, you know, these kind of life experiences make me more aware and
appreciate weaker ties, you know, transient ties, things like that.
But yeah, I think, I think living, living in a new city, living in a city, you don't
already know people.
That's definitely a big factor that made me realize about the powers of weak ties.
Yeah.
It puts you in a position where the weak ties might mean a lot more, but it also sounds
like you have found that being aware of the, at this point, I think we're talking about
being aware that you are surrounded by other people, right.
And like what they're going through as a tie to the fact that you're in a social system,
right.
That you're in a society and people are around and everybody has their own reality, but you
are all sharing a space, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which I guess, I mean, I hope that's like one of the things I didn't forget to learn
as I grew up, you know, like maybe this is just like a, like part of things that as one
gets socialized, the one learns.
Yeah.
I think it's not necessarily that it gets forgotten.
It's that it's hard to learn, especially when you're not surrounded by things that help you
do the socialization, right.
Like if you're surrounded by an environment that does tend to ignore those around them
for good or bad, there's mixes here, but you're not necessarily going to be going out of your
way to create those spaces.
If you're in an environment that has a moment of, not a moment of, but a, a friendly is
not the right word, more like an aware.
Opportunity?
Yeah.
You have this environment with a set of opportunities so that you can choose to engage and make
some of those weak ties, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Recognize that you're in a social reality and your own at the same time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There is something to be said here about the difference in response to people that need
help in different cities and across cultures here.
I made a note of that.
Maybe we can talk about that later.
Yeah.
We can stop this episode for now because I also want to talk about, like there, there's
sort of like many sort of stems that can go from here.
I do also want to talk about strong ties, but my laundry is over, so I need to go pick it
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up.
So it's time to go control the weather.
Hey, it's sunny now.
You've apparently successfully controlled the weather.
That's it for the show today.
Thanks for listening and find us on X at Ego de Science, that is E-I-G-O-D-E-S-C-I-E-N-C-E.
See you next time.
