AIと大学教育における学習の定義
What like 18 to 20 something year old who has whoare lucky enough to be getting universityeducation
like why ruin your chance at actually learning andthat is my biggest question.
I've got I've got comments we've it's it's a greatquestion right but that question has I think an
implication underneath and the implication is thatthe students have entered the university
for their learning that is a big assumption yesthat's right so and I I leave that hanging a bit
because we as I think you shared right in theprevious sort of discussion here yeah we have
maybe those of us that are like yeah you gotta dothe learning and you know try to understand and
ask the tough questions and you know right like beengaged uh we have a a baseline that is perhaps
very different than a lot of other students notthat the students that's not to say yeah that
the students and people yeah because they are alsopeople you know don't want to learn but it's that
there are other factors playing a greater role intheir overall you know motivations right and and
also different environment growing up right likethey yeah uh have had previous experience of
successfully getting away with these kind of actsor maybe some students genuinely do
say that they learn the material better throughchachi bt than uh you know universally lecturer
because it goes over their head during the classand it's much easier to learn through self-paced
automatically generating uh thing right that youcan talk to and it can be yeah it just that atthat
young age and at that level of learning you haveno real discerning brain to like decide
whether you're actually learning something thatyou need to learn or if you're just being fed
garbage and right um and i think a lot of studentsdon't understand that bulk of it is garbage indeed
and um i i think this is like a very concerningpart because these are people who use and pay
for gen ais every day probably largest portion ofpopulations right and
so they're going to be the core user of these llmsand gen ai is going forward if if not already and
yeah and these are exactly also the people who areyet to understand what is legit and what's not
i it just like it scares me but maybe they're notscared i think well so to draw on a bunch
AI利用に対する学生の認識と大学の対応
of you know the survey related stuff there arecohorts of students you know especially say in
the states or out of um some of the collected uhsurveys on students from the brown ai teaching
one uh there i think it was like 20 to 30 percentof students that are just
either like you know absolutely not right likewe're not touching that okay sort of tool or like
you know there's don't you know i'm not going togo back and look at the report at the moment but
there is a chunk right who are like i'm absolutelynot even here you know in in sort of japanese
universities there are there are clearly segmentsthat are like i just know right like there's no
there's probably not as many of the very likerigid absolutely not yeah just based on sort of
the the surveys that i've done and the theexperience with students but there is kind of
like a do we you know like you know like thisdoesn't have to be the way that i learn it right
you know and the the awareness of not necessarilyhow to learn but the awareness of what
a bypassing tool and what the sort of thinkingprocess entails and how to sort of question and
interrogate your own learning is not necessarilyeither being developed as much say before
university or you know as a result of gen ai orotherwise uh and or is now not really having a
chance to develop in a way that might create notprotection maybe incidental protection but
to create a critical inquisitive mind when facingthese tools yeah yeah yeah i think yeah i think
it's um yeah right right now they're at sort oflike the cusp of you know adults being probably
able to implement some kind of measure to umincentivize them to be critical with the use of
gen ai versus like you know just like lettingthings run free and uh it's it's a tough time to
sort of navigate that because again sort of thislike late stage capitalism that like
you know trickles down into education system makesyou think that you know you must outperform
your peers in order to stand out and how does oneoutperform when you only have 24 hours in the day
like you know yeah you like use whatever you canright and and yeah and this this takes precedent
over maybe more time consuming actual learning ormore exhausting ways of learning things and ithink
like like to all of them right like as someonewho's just slightly older than them i want to be
like if you don't learn now like do you thinkyou're gonna have any other learning opportunity
where you are allowed to make mistakes and allowedto fail and have very little consequences other
than maybe having to retake an exam or somethinglike it's like it's just like in real world right
like if you make a mistake and lose a bunch ofmoney like that's your real money and and and
that's a real consequence um for the company orwhatever you're doing and and whereas school for
at least in an ideal setting is supposed to be aplace where you're still allowed to experiment
and make mistake and learn along the way and likefor some reason um it's like even the schools
became a place to perform and perform at all costbefore you're like learning and i guess that is
like we we cannot forget to blame sort of thehigher education for rewarding performance only
right for decades and decades universities haveonly rewarded performance like
strictly quantitative and measurable performancesand rewarded those who perform better
and discarded those who did not meet theirperformance level and yeah and we've been
talking about how that doesn't work or like howthere's this right tug of it's not even a tug of
大学の評価システムとAIの影響
war it's just this pulling to make somethingquantitative that is not inherently captured by
you know a single set of values right and likeyou've either you've either got to get super
complicated or just keep it simple and like treatit as a process and an experience but then there's
you mentioned the capitalist trend i mean it's acompetition in a sense it's you've got to get the
highest grade you've got to get the highest one inthe class you've got to you know do it the
fastest to do it the most whatever um yeah and andpeople who grew up in that type of environment
right like if ever since your kindergarten youwere like asked to do something better than the
person next to you in order to get a specialsticker or something um like that is um
this is the ultimate consequence right like we'rekind of you know in a way universities getting
a big big like slap in their face for not tryingto come up with more holistic way of assessing
performance and being lazy and being using thesame damn metric that like some crusty white old
guy in oxford probably came up with it like 300years ago right and like yeah like still using
the same metric to like grade students and likeputting so much emphasis on that and uh now it's
like well your grades mean nothing because we havea whole different way of performing and yeah
exactly yeah it's it's just like it's it's wildthat you know on one hand i'm like are yousurprised
that this is now your new problem to deal with butat the same time i'm like i really like we
really can't have a whole last generation in thislike like purgatory chasm of like what the fuck
are we doing look again right you know does thissurprise you type questions fall in the same
category of just don't can you not like you knowcan you not uh these are these are all in the
same bundle right where we're not for anybody thathas paused to think about the educational space
in and wondered right what is it that we'reactually helping students do what is it that
we're actually you know trying to measure andcapture from the students how much is this
influenced by you know learning and sort ofworking out the murkiness of you know differentskills
that are you know being developed versus justtrying to quantify something unquantifiable so
that it makes us feel better about it right um andand lets people create markers that you know give
you quote unquote evidence for you know spendingfifty thousand dollars a year right um on a
tuition right you know for for a particularuniversity and so uh there was and and you
know listeners can't see this but i was basicallylooking down for a little bit because i i had seen
an article that was kind of i think an interestingdiscussion about this basically the changing and
shifting and how academic institutions both relateto themselves internally but to each other
right like as a whole kind of unit um it was likea you know i didn't get to read the whole thing
but i felt maybe it would be relevant somethingabout kind of like multi-versity multi-universities
was it one of the university presidents universityof california maybe uh-huh care k-e-r-r i'll see
if i can find it again but anyway like thediscussion around how all of these systems are
being disrupted shifting in some set of directionsthat are still being worked out at the sort of
faculty level the student level the administrationlevel sort of systemic level um and that
this is not the first time these questions haveever come up it's sure we're facing them in this
way because a sort of tool has come in and saidyou need to ask these questions now because i'm
not letting you essentially the you know the toolsexistence doesn't let us as comfortably
just accept that products as an evidence oflearning by students are imperfect yeah because
now the ownership is a question now the thequestion of whether or not that student was part
of their own learning process is a questionwhether that student's learning process holds up
to things like the academic rigor and uhdisciplinary standards you know to to your field
you know when the ai is present there these arethis is the thing that i'm supposed to be you know
finishing up and wrapping up that's my picture solike you know so like yeah and yet here we are
right and we're having yeah you know singleindividual teachers which i still believe
should have the sort of freedom and the support tomake their own decisions within their discipline
but they're they're ending up with situations likethis and variations of of this form because
of being stuck in a particular system version ofdoing it and then having to try and address it
where i mean serrano here i think was told by theuniversity please submit individual you know code
of conduct forms for every student and then likeeducate them like this is not that's not the way
to handle it i know that that's the you knowinstitutional approach that's also not his
AI時代における大学教育の再定義と倫理
responsibility no and so this is where you getlike you know the the teacher honestly it's likeyou
go fine well i've done what i think was relevantand ethically important to my class and i've made
the lesson learned i'm you know i'm satisfied withthat but it's not gonna maybe make any you
know university change unless you start you knowsharing it yeah and and also this is another sort
of uh evils of capitalism and the sort ofcompetition mindset right like if i have to do
all of these other extra measures to go and tryand make a change like but you still your
assessment maybe your um evaluation as a teacheris still evaluated in the same way as all the
other colleagues right yeah then at leasttemporarily it has a higher chance of looking
bad on you and looking better on your othercolleagues because numbers and um and and you
will be the one to suffer the consequences sothere's no real incentive structure for people
to do something disruptive like this and you knowi think serrano's case is pretty rare right likehe
had this blatantly obvious trend that he wasobserving in his class and he is a tenure faculty
who can do these kind of things right and yeah umyeah and still like i'm sure he's getting a lot of
unwanted attentions from the university from othercolleagues and whatnot by doing this and probably
going to get some shitty student evaluations andwhich that's a whole other thing right like
so of course to maybe caveat some of this to toyou know sit with my own suggestions right when
we're talking about things you know couch it inthe proper hedging language um we don't knowexactly
every sort of nuanced detail of communicationbetween you know the faculty member and the
students for all of this from the way that thestory is described and the way that it sort of
leads out this seems like a very likeintentionally constructed way of framing to thestudents and
giving opportunity to like you know express anddemonstrate their learning which is the core
portion of that course yeah right without withoutand i think this is important bit of a caveat
because he does then submit you know those sort ofcode of conduct things where i i have mixed
opinions on that particular decision but i respectthe conclusion right where he's given
that exchange and he re sort of emphasizes whatthe importance and the value is of the courses
that is the way of bringing an awareness tostudents if they're going to get it at all if
any human if any person is going to get it yeahright bringing that back to them instead of
you know trying to hunt down and police you knowai right right that's not that's that's not and
i'm glad that that serrano didn't sort of wastehis energy on like trying to hunt down
uh doing sort of like you know whodunit uhescapade like all of that um yeah so
but it's still like the problem still remainsright like you know what yes what would it mean
to be a university student in today's day and ageum what does it mean to like have like like we
joke about getting a phd before chachi pt took offbut like you know like but then what does like i
don't think people who got phd after 2024 is likeyou know worthless like right like i don't thinkso
and no i would never make that blanket right rightbut like it's it's like it's it's just it's
it's unreasonable and it doesn't work that way butit is very different right like like you know
just like the the just like how getting a phd pre-internet was really different from getting
a phd with internet and right exactly yeah yeahyeah yeah so these are major yeah it's it's a it's
sort of it is a recurring problem and sort of iguess um you know historically speaking university
AI時代における人間性の維持と投資
education was not available to mass people so likethe impact it had was relatively
confined i guess but now um with university umwell like the society incentivizing many more
people to pursue at least a bachelor degree andmany more people to pursue even post baccalaureate
degrees um i'm sorry post bachelor degrees like uhit's only going to make this university policy
a bigger impact of a thing to the society and andi agree that not enough people are thinking aboutit
not enough people are engaging with this problemum and what a time you know
what a time is a good yeah because we're we areseeing it in the ways that people act engage you
know create and do all of these things and we arenavigating a very uncertain or at least uncertain
in the sense of like we don't know how everybodyis reacting to it yet yeah we have to redevelop
a sense of yeah we have to redevelop a sense ofethics around it a sense of importance and values
around it we have to renegotiate these things likewe need to bring in the ethics and thinking about
how to think back into the center of our academicdiscourse you know not as like a tick off
electives that you need to do you know like aresearch ethics class that like we all had to do
for some reason that taught us nothing right whichmay have attempted it's one of those out
of the goodness of somebody's heart they attemptedto create you know a course of value but they
lost it when it became a course of check boxingright i mean they failed to maintain the value
and and this is another thing where like it's onething to institute a policy change it's another
to maintain and uphold and constantly re-evaluateif that policy is effective or not and that shit
is going to cost so maybe before building a new idon't know some fancy facility on campus
uh maybe hire the damn people to think and monitorthese policy changes
yeah hire me yeah higher land
i'll happily sit there and be like all right sowhat have you been doing in the last three years
and how many things am i gonna have to talk youthrough yeah it just like it it's it's it's again
like yeah i feel like i'm coming back to the samestory of like invest in people right invest in an
actual people who will have to live theconsequences of whatever this is and right
because that's the only way you're gonna havepeople developing as people right yeah like you
don't get this unless you invest in them i knowfor all of the anti-social individuals out there
you don't want to talk to people and using a genai tool to just do your job or whatever
seems super comfortable and and wonderfullyseductive but just don't and and also it's
it's too late it's too late by the time you feellike you want to regain your humanity
right like it's it's like if we lose that it'sgonna be so much harder it's right it's a very
uphill battle it's a very uphill battle and yesthe cost is insurmountable but like if we don't
invest in this like i frankly don't know asidefrom maybe climate change like
any other more important and dire discussion otherthan this because what like are we going
to be just like a you know bunch of oxygenconsuming robots who like feed in data to these
models worse because we won't be able to feed inthe data if we cannot think and construct
our ideas that's true or they're just gonna get abunch of empty codes from us yeah it's actually
it's actually worse right the sort of you knowmodel um oh dear there's a word for it and it's
escaped me but um it's the awareness that if youallow the model to train on all the text that
it's generated right these sort of ouroboroseffects yeah yeah it will get worse yeah which
is why i guess to remind us again now i've saidthis twice they are scanning and destroying books
still uh in order to try and get as much you knowdata that is not a generated slot
or otherwise be the one that generates the dataand then protect your data at all costs
the important part is the production yeah becauseyou can do the generating your data but people who
are who are broke and are dealing struggling withfinances yeah are also but but maybe have high
you know uh advanced degrees like a phd yeah thatthese companies have been hiring them at
like 100 to like 150 us dollars an hour you knowto train the models right this has been going on
for the last two that's true and if they're nothiring americans they're hiring somebody in like
india like yeah for like 13 cents an hour exactlyso like and i mean and i mean that is a problem
problem and yeah no it's it's it's way too muchfor our little humble podcast to like
discuss all possible consequences of this sadlybut we're not gonna we're not gonna cover it
all this will not be the last time you hear us yapabout and agonize over ai anything
and we will keep talking about it until you starttalking about it
yeah like we will keep talking about it until youstart talking about it and then we'll be able to
have better conversations around it because youknow we don't have to focus on it we focus on all
of these like interconnected questions and effectsand impacts yes humans seeking meaning and value
and like yes in life yes very important i thinkwe're genetically blessed to be good at being a
human so like let's just you know tap into thatyou know i've always felt myself as more of a
starfish actually i have no reason for why ipicked starfish that was completely unconscious
maybe you really wanted to have a yellow squaresponge best friend and
that's probably yeah subconsciously i've alwaysmissed that
yep wanted to live under a rock as well apineapple shaped rock yeah there's so many
things about that that i've just you know i'm veryjealous of so um all right for our audience
spongebob squarepants you know um all right thanksfor listening thank you thank you
so much for chatting with me about this eventthank you thank you we'll leave some links and
stuff for for your own explorations and learningso all right keep up all the critical
that's it for the show today folks thanks forlistening you can find us on next at
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