タマモの神話の考察
I think TamaMo is like making appearances as sort of like a character in like other forms of Japanese media.
Like she seems to be like a, I don't know, like a character that is popping up in a lot of different places.
And I also read about this in a book that included this particular, you know, character and had a lot of the backstory about her.
Welcome back to 2AM OTTACK! I'm your host Mayu, a born and raised Japanese non-otaku, and...
I'm Cisco, an American otaku.
In this podcast, we share our reviews of anime and manga through our distinct perspectives with commentary on Japanese culture, history, and language.
Cisco, the Apothecary Diaries are done with the second season and the last couple episodes were mind-blowing and moving at the same time.
A little bit like tears.
Yeah, there were some like pretty emotional moments in the last two.
Yeah, and also Jinshi. I like Jinshi. He's funny.
Why? What makes you say that?
He's just funny. He's like a little child sometimes.
The more you say this, the more I want to know which scenes you're thinking of.
Okay, we can talk about it too. And the last episode of the last scene of the Apothecary Diaries season 2, you reacted to the name TamaMo.
Yeah.
And you have like some commentary to make about it.
I do, yeah.
Okay, and this could be a hint, could be or maybe a hint to the next Apothecary Diaries season.
Well, I'm not sure about that, but well, yeah, why not?
Yeah, could be.
Okay, today we'll talk about the legend of TamaMo no Mae, discuss our thoughts on the ending of the Apothecary Diaries, and introduce a new word of the day.
Before we start, we'd like to hear from you. Share your thoughts, ideas, questions, or even suggestions that we should talk about.
Send us a message to the email in the description, or you can use Spotify and the YouTube comment section as well.
All right, so let's dive into TamaMo Mae.
So what made you think Shisui looking girl, or pretty much I think Shisui, calling herself TamaMo?
Yeah, first, just for a point of clarity, is it TamaMo Mae or TamaMo no Mae?
Shisui called herself TamaMo. That's it.
Yeah. Oh, okay. I'm seeing that there are like all of these different possible things.
So sometimes it is, I guess, just TamaMo Mae, and sometimes it's TamaMo no Mae, and sometimes it's TamaMo with like a go-mae or something like that.
So there's lots of different ways to write it, apparently.
Anyway, yeah, I reacted strongly because TamaMo is a complicated figure in Japanese mythology.
It's bound up with ideas about fox spirits, and especially the nine-tailed fox, which is like a really common trope in anime and manga.
Because in this particular season, so many of the characters spent time wearing fox masks, and that was like a huge component of the second half of the season.
And like the whole second course opening is like obsessed with the fox mask and stuff.
It sort of made sense that they wanted to make this connection to this fox spirit.
Am I wrong that at the end, this is a spoiler, but at the end, Shisui is getting on a boat, or is it like a harbor or something?
She is at the harbor, and she made a comment talking to the merchant, and it said, I bet it'll be fun to see what's across the sea.
Right. So it really implies that she's thinking about going to Japan.
Sounds like it, yeah.
TamaMoの伝説とその影響
And in the legend of TamaMo, the evil fox spirit is immortal.
It can live forever and possess people.
And so, particularly because earlier in the last couple episodes, it's heavily implied that Shisui is dead, right?
She sustains multiple gunshot wounds and falls off a castle wall.
And they're like, oh, but they never found her body.
And you're like, okay, so she's obviously still alive, but it feels a little bit immortal, right?
Even all those bullets couldn't kill her.
And so her picking the name of TamaMo also is a link to that sort of immortality piece.
The reason that I wasn't super happy with this choice, even though I get the connections there and visually and everything else, is TamaMo is an evil spirit.
The fox spirit possesses women throughout various parts of Asian history and makes them be evil and usually destroy the country that they're found in.
So I think the origin of TamaMo as a mythological character is from the medieval period in Japan.
Some people speculate that there was a real person who was a mother of some of the emperors and who was very involved in political scheming and stuff, who may have been a model for this idea as woman as country ruiner, because there were a bunch of rebellions that happened as a result of some of her machinations.
And Chinese history is full of this kind of thing, where often the spouse of the emperor or the mother of the next emperor is scheming in order to get her family more power over the country.
And I think after having been invented as this fox spirit concubine of one of the emperors who messed up the country, I think the story is that she made the emperor Konoe very, very sick and that he eventually died of this illness.
I guess he didn't die of her illness, but she made him sick.
And then he had a onmyoji, I think, like discover that she was a fox spirit and chase her out and then sent warriors to go kill the fox spirit.
And they killed it, but then it's, you know, and then later, like it got trapped in a rock and then recently the rock broke open.
But to like add to the mythos of Tamamo, there was then this sort of backstory of like, it's the same evil fox spirit that wrecked things in India and in China in like earlier dynasties of Chinese history.
And so the really big example is Daji, who's a, I have no idea if I'm saying that right, but she was one of the consorts of the last emperor of the Shang dynasty.
And she's like, historically, or, you know, according to the records, like very evil, right?
And like super sadistic, like torturing people and like killing them in cruel ways.
And also sort of very sensual, right?
Like asked the king to build like a pond of alcohol with a tree of meat where there's just like meat hanging off the tree.
And so like, thereby like corrupted the emperor, like ruined the kingdom's finances and like made everybody hate him.
And eventually like, you know, she's like chased out or the fox spirit is chased away.
It goes to India and it like causes havoc there.
And then it comes back to China and like, again, inhabits like a concubine of one of the emperors who like causes him to make a bunch of bad decisions.
タマモの議論
So in almost all of these cases, everything gets blamed on the woman, basically.
And like, I guess a little bit there being like, oh, it's an evil fox spirit, right?
As opposed to like just actually the woman's fault.
But it still feels like really misogynistic.
And I just don't really care for it that much.
So taking Shisui, who was like a complex, really interesting character and like having her be like, oh yeah, I'm actually like Tamamo.
That's why I like, you know, ruined everything and like brought down the entire Shi clan, whatever.
I mean, if it's her, like choosing that name intentionally as a reference or whatever, maybe I sort of get it.
And like, again, the fox thing really felt strong in this episode.
So that made a lot of sense as a connection, but it just didn't sit super right with me.
I wanted a better ending for her than that.
I'm not sure if she is immortal.
My guess is because they were making Fei-Fa the guns.
I think it's natural to think about the protection too.
So maybe she's got like a really good body.
Bulletproof vest?
Yes.
No way.
No?
She's like, she's in full body like bulletproof armor and she's doing like that really elegant dance at the end?
Yes.
No.
That was my guess.
Okay.
That works for me.
Yeah.
So how do you know about Tamamo-mae?
So Tamamo is in like a lot of different, I mean, one, like the nine-tailed fox is like a thing in Naruto also.
Right.
I don't think it's connected with Tamamo at all.
Yeah.
But the nine-tailed fox is like what's inside Naruto.
The idea of the nine-tailed fox has like been really popular in like many different popular culture things.
Like, you know, in the last couple of years, like, you know, we even saw it in that HBO series.
It was the one that was about like magic and like it was based on like Lovecraft's ideas and work.
Lovecraft country.
Yeah.
So there's a nine-tailed fox in that one.
And, you know, that's not even Japan.
So the nine-tailed fox thing has been big.
I think Tamamo is like making appearances as sort of like a character in like other forms of Japanese media.
Like she seems to be like a, I don't know, like a character that is popping up in a lot of different places.
And I also read about this in a book that included this particular, you know, character and had a lot of the backstory about her.
And I think in 2022, the rock supposedly containing her spirit where it had been contained.
Oh, you know what?
That's right.
It was also in the Elusive Samurai.
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think there's a chapter where some of this legend is alluded to because the priest that supposedly appeased Tamamo No Mae's spirit and calmed her down in the Killing Stone, you know, Sesshō Seki, that her spirit was in, first like trapped her there into the Nanbōkuchō period.
I could be wrong, but I feel like it showed up in, like the character has been showing up in a lot of places as like a nine-tailed fox girl.
Elusive Samurai might've had a thing about the Sesshō Seki and it was in the Yōkai book and the Sesshō Seki broke fairly recently.
And the like local government held a ceremony to try to like appease Tamamo's spirit again to be like, we released you, but like, please don't hurt us.
So hopefully like we won't see any more of that type of story in the modern day of like, oh, everything like went wrong with the country.
And it's like some random woman without power's fault because she's an evil fox spirit.
But yeah, so it's been around in a lot of places.
Wow, good to know.
All right.
第2シーズンのストーリー
Let's talk about the second season of the Apothecary Diaries.
What did you think about the story based on Sisley slash Lauren?
Lolan, based on Lauren?
Like I knew Lauren as a kid.
Lolan, I think was a really interesting character.
I liked a lot of the deception that happened, especially with like the, all the maids looking the same to like fool them that she wasn't there.
I kind of had trouble following like the twists and turns of why the she family was rebelling.
Like I, and you know, and here's the other thing is like the mom of Lolan, she's like a classic Tamamo character.
She's like just evil, right?
Like she doesn't even really have a good reason.
Like her main reason, like her pride was hurt that she wasn't the Emperor's favorite.
Right.
But she's like a straight up bad person, start to finish.
And, and I didn't, I didn't love that.
Like, I didn't love that her character was like so one-sided compared to literally everyone else.
And I kind of didn't understand why they were rebelling.
It was like, like, I thought there was going to be a deeper connection there.
Like we were supposed to be sitting on the throne or like we have an, you know, a competing heir to the throne or like something, not just like, oh, I don't know.
We're going to like rebel and take over the country.
What?
So, uh, so some of the, like when the grand plot was finally unveiled, I was just like, this is like not even that impressive.
And it didn't seem to have anything to do with where they were from either.
Like they weren't like oppressed and rebelling.
Like, I don't know.
So the, that part of it was unsatisfying to me, but it was cool that they got out of the, you know, the, uh, like Imperial City finally and like showed some other parts of the country.
And I liked the little touches on the other things, like the way that the Hidden Village, you know, had like the rice worship and, you know, the fox stuff.
And there was lots of parts of it that were cool.
It was just like the overall plot to me, like, didn't really make sense.
It was so complicated.
Like there was a scene, Loran, Rolan, Loran.
Lo-lan.
Oh, sorry.
Loran.
No, there's no Rs.
Lo-lan.
Think of like Shaolan or something like Lo-lan.
I just listen in Japanese and, you know, characters say Loran, Loran.
So like, I can't tell which I get.
This is hilarious that you translated Loran.
That's what I hear.
Loran.
Loran.
Right?
Okay.
Yeah.
Just say it with the Japanese intonation.
Okay.
I'll just go with Japanese intonation.
But when you try to say it English-wise and you're like Loran, it's like really sounds funny.
All right.
Okay.
Loran.
Loran.
キャラクターの葛藤
There was a scene.
Like they were plotting in front of everybody.
Jinshi, Maomao, and her own mother.
Right, right, right.
And I just couldn't get through just listening one time.
I was like, that was so fast.
Like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Like, what do you mean?
And I think I finally, eventually we figured it out.
But yeah, I think good things about reading manga or light novels,
and you can stop and take it in and you can go back and you can move on once you get it.
But like anime, it was so fast.
Yeah, it went by really quickly.
And there was also this whole thing about Loran disagreeing with her mom
and not thinking it was a good idea to do this whole stupid plan
and then doing it anyway for the good of the country or something.
And it was very complicated.
So I didn't quite fully understand why they were so eager to topple the government.
But that said, the regular story beats were okay.
I feel like Maomao wasn't in this series as much, the second half of the second quarter.
She was just a captive a lot of the time being like,
oh, well, whatever, I guess I'm going to do whatever I need to do here.
And she's not very proactive about escaping.
I think she tries once, kind of, and the rest of the time she's just sort of like,
I guess I'll just do this now.
It's not her first time.
Right.
I was also stunned that she didn't figure out that the kids weren't really dead.
I thought that was very obvious.
I mean, whatever.
It's always obvious to the viewer.
But it just seemed like, look, you know,
these people have a drug that makes you pretend to die and come back to life.
You've already dealt with that.
It did not cross your mind that they might be doing that again
to try to make sure these kids don't actually die.
So I was surprised that she was surprised that they were still alive.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Okay.
象徴的なアイテムの交換
So, last scene of Roram.
Is there any meaning that she picked cicada accessory
and then traded it with Jinshi's Kanzashi hairpin?
I think probably there's two.
One, Maomao keeps making the joke that it might, like,
show up at some, like, merchant stall somewhere,
which now it's going to, right?
So, like, that joke is there.
Cicadas, you know, are famous for dying and then, like, you know,
having, like, the next brood of cicadas emerge, like, years later.
So I don't think cicadas particularly have, like,
an immortality thing going on,
but they definitely have, like, a cyclical nature where they, like,
die and disappear and then, like, come back to life, sort of,
many years later in a different form.
And, like, that's been a real theme of, like,
the whole story of Rodan's family with the, like, you know,
you know, the ones who are already dead won't get punished
and, like, Shisui faking her own death
to get out of the castle the first time.
There's a lot of faking of death going on, you know.
Rodan, for that matter, like, getting shot and falling off the parapet,
seeming to die and then being alive again.
キツネの表現と料理
That all seems to me to be cicada-related or metaphorical.
Yeah.
Okay, let's do today's word of the day.
Okay, why don't we do kitsune?
Yeah, I think that's a good choice.
Kitsune is fox.
Right.
Now, kitsune gets used in a lot of expressions and sayings.
Do you want to, like, share any of those with us?
What does that mean?
Like, literal meaning is I was pinched by a fox.
And how do you use this saying?
I think you use it like something you didn't expect happened.
Hmm, okay.
So, man, when Rodan was alive at the end of the last episode,
I was like, ah, kitsune ni tsutsumareta.
Tsutsumareta, like pinch.
I was wrapped up by a fox.
No, I definitely got it wrong.
Okay, so, tsumareta?
So, tsumareta?
Kitsune ni tsumamareta.
Tsumamareta?
Yeah, kitsune ni tsumamareru.
It's like, yeah, nemi-mimi-mizu kind of thing.
Okay.
God, that's the worst one.
Neni-mimi-mizu, I really don't like that image at all.
Mizu, I'm sure you'll be surprised if you have water in your ear.
Maybe, like, maybe the connection just skipped or something.
I heard neni-mimi-mizu and I was like, that's the worst thing ever.
Neni-mimi-mizu, while you're asleep, like a drop of water in your ear means like surprised.
Still bad, yeah.
Yeah.
But, okay, better than an earthworm in your ear.
I think I'm going to say neni-mimi-mizu from now on.
I don't really know a lot of sayings that are associated with it,
but it's used to describe a lot of food.
So, like, kitsune udon, right?
Or kitsune soba is a thing.
Why are those fox udon or fox soba?
I think because of the color of the aburaage.
Aburaage is a deep-fried thin tofu, which is usually one of the toppings for udon or soba.
And then the color is like kind of similar to fox, kitsune's color, I think.
Like a dark brown, almost a red.
Yeah.
Okay, interesting.
I would not have thought that.
And how is it different than tanuki udon?
I don't know about tanuki.
Tanuki doesn't have age.
I just think it's interesting that both foxes and tanukis are animals in Japan
that are thought to have the ability to shapeshift, especially into humans, to trick humans.
And they also both show up in food.
And I can't really figure out why.
But the idea that the coloring is similar for the kitsune kind of makes sense.
Okay, so I was right.
Tanuki is like tenkasu or tempura kind of based topping.
And the kitsune is aburaage.
And the kitsune loves eating aburaage.
Is that a fact or that's like an assumption?
No, it's not a fact.
I don't think wild fox, I mean, it's not good for them anyway.
But in a lot of like folktales and stuff, kitsune likes eating aburaage.
Fried tofu.
Okay, all right.
So that's why it's a kitsune udon because that's like the one they would pick.
Yeah.
And that's their favorite thing in it.
Right.
Tanuki is the other one.
Tenkasu, well, I think tempura too, I think.
But not like a fancy tempura, like a small, not fancy.
You mean like just random fried bits of like flour or whatever?
Right, right.
キャラクターの感情の変化
Not like a shrimp?
No, not like that.
Okay, I think for many Americans, probably because of sushi restaurants,
just hearing tempura automatically means shrimp.
Like, I'm sure if you've gone to like a more fancy Japanese restaurant
and had like, you know, tempura vegetables and stuff,
you might know the difference.
But I think for like Americans who aren't really well versed in Japanese cuisine,
tempura equals fried shrimp rather than like something else.
Really?
Maybe it's just me.
But I think that connection for most Americans is probably pretty strong
because when you order like tempura sushi,
it's always a fried shrimp that comes in that particular type of roll.
And most sushi restaurants aren't serving any other kind of tempura.
There's no like, you know, pumpkin or onion or I don't know, bell pepper,
anything else that's ever made into tempura like existing there.
It's almost always just shrimp.
So to specify tenkasu is like the little sort of like things that break off
of like little just fried bits of whatever bread, crumb, flour, whatever,
that that's the thing that the tanuki likes, not eating a fried shrimp.
So like when you deep fry like a regular, let's say, shrimp tempura,
in the oil pot, there's a lot of crumbs left over and those are tenkasu.
But I think you can use it for like udon or soba or other stuff as a topping
because, you know, you can still eat it.
Yeah, it's crunchy and sweet.
But most of the places you go in Japan in a restaurant,
they actually make tenkasu and then distribute.
All right. Well, so I think that's a pretty good definition of kitsune,
both as a fox and as a topping for things.
Yeah. All right. So anything else you'd like to add before we end?
I wonder whether there'll be a third season of Apothecary Diaries.
Yes.
At this point.
Yes, it's already announced.
Yes.
Okay. I mean, I guess like Maomao and Jinchi still haven't even kissed.
So did they, right?
Yeah, they haven't.
I mean, I guess she's like awkwardly felt him up,
but like that's as far as they've gone.
And like he tried super hard in this last couple episodes
to like finally make it happen, man.
And she just got like saved by the bell every time.
Yeah, she doesn't, I don't know, she has like resisting to her feelings
or like she's just not interested in him.
I would say if I was him by this point,
I would literally be like, she does not like me.
Like this is, I have taken the hint, thank you.
Like, you don't want this to happen.
Like, cool.
And sometimes I worry that he's like, well, I'm like, I'm the freaking emperor.
Like, you know, you have to, if I say I want to.
Like, it's like almost where it got in the last episode or two.
So like, yikes.
Yeah.
But you know, she's never, you know, even if she does feel that way,
she's like never going to say so.
She's like, I'm just a little apothecary, you know, little old me.
You shouldn't be with me anyway.
La la la.
So he has to be like pretty bold.
Right.
Yeah.
He was more expressive about his feelings,
マオマオのユーモアと個性
especially now Maomao knows that Jinxi is not unique.
Yeah.
And that he's like sort of come out of the closet as like a real dude.
Yes.
He's funny.
I don't know.
Which is the part that makes you think he's like a little kid.
Like he was like grabbed Maomao's body and then started to,
I'm going to use your knees like a pillow and then just started to fall asleep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then Maomao's like, my legs might go numb, but okay.
And just, you know, keep doing whatever she needed to.
Yeah.
That moment was pretty funny.
Yeah.
That would be me.
Yes, it would.
I'm so Maomao.
I can't really say.
I'm not as smart as Maomao, but.
By the end of this season, I definitely was like, wow,
you really are Maomao in a lot of ways.
So true.
I mean, the obsession was the medicine and the herbs.
Like I'm there.
I'm her, basically.
Please don't test snake bites on yourself.
Yeah, I don't do that.
But the devotion is like fascinating.
And then, yeah, I'm exactly like her.
So I get it.
Nice.
Okay.
I think we should stop there.
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