I don't know. If you promised me as a human, you know, 40 years of really good life,
and then, like, I would get executed as food for some aliens or something,
like, I'm not sure that I would feel that it was, like, completely unfair.
I'd be like, 40 years is a pretty long time.
Like, if I got to, like, have a family and everything else, like, I don't know, maybe.
So...
I never thought about it that way before.
Back to 2AM OTTACK! I'm your host Mayu, a born and raised Japanese non-otaku, and...
I'm Cisco, an American-born otaku.
In this podcast, we share reviews of anime and manga through our distinct perspectives
with commentary on Japanese culture, history, and the language.
Cisco, I am super excited to talk about this manga.
I know.
This manga won Manga Taisho in 2022 in Japan.
By May 2024, the manga had over 1.6 million copies in circulation.
Interesting. I didn't realize it was such a big hit.
Anime television series adaptation produced by Belknox Films is set to premiere in January 2026.
So today we are going to talk about...
The Darwin Incident.
We will introduce what manga The Darwin Incident is about,
along with our thoughts on the story and why we like reading it so much.
We are also going to talk about the real-life human-sy, Oliver, and the truth.
And lastly, today's word of the day.
All right.
Before we start, we'd like to hear from you.
Share your thoughts, ideas, questions, or even suggestions that we should talk about.
Send us a message to the email in the description,
or you can use Spotify and the YouTube comments section as well.
All right. So let's do the introduction.
The Darwin Incident in Japanese is called Darwin Jihen.
It's a Japanese manga series written and illustrated by Shun Umezawa.
It has been serialized in Kodansha's seinen manga magazine monthly afternoon since June 2020.
Eight volumes have been released.
English version has six volumes so far.
Only six.
Only six. And the seventh volume will come out on June 10th, 2025.
Oh, no.
And the ninth volume will come out on May 22nd, 2025 in Japanese.
So, like, right now, basically.
Right now. Yeah.
So far, we've read whatever is available until the sixth volume in America.
Are we going to be trying to not spoiler things in this?
We're going to try not to spoil.
Okay, but no promises, though.
Yeah.
Go read it right now and then come back and listen to this episode once you've already read it.
Or we're going to be pretty careful.
Yeah, we're going to be careful.
All right.
So can you simply introduce the plot?
Yeah, but I thought we weren't spoiling things.
Okay, I'll just introduce the very beginning.
Yes.
Like, this is no spoilers for beyond the first book.
So Charlie, the main character of the story, is a human Z.
He had a chimpanzee mother, but a biologically human father.
He was rescued, or I guess the mother was rescued from the lab she was in by a group called the ALA, the Animal Liberation Alliance.
And she was found to already be sort of bleeding out, right, and very near giving birth.
So they rescued her.
She survived.
He was born.
And then he seems to have grown up with a sort of regular American family in Missouri.
And so the story picks up with him when he's about 16.
I don't know.
It's not clear.
15.
And going to high school after having been out of school for a time.
So that's where the story starts.
And a lot of it is just about him and sort of what happens in his life and sort of incidents that begin to unfold around him.
Does that feel fair?
So it starts from there and like almost immediately like talking about veganism.
Yeah, that's a major theme in the first book.
Right.
So I was like, is this all about it?
Like the entire book seems like talking about veganisms, which I don't have a problem.
I'm vegetarian for myself and I support it.
But in the book it's about like animal rights.
Yeah.
There's a definite focus on animal rights in this book, or I don't want to say a focus,
but it asks a lot of questions about whether non-human animals ought to have rights or not.
Although it does take an explicit stance on that and has a lot of sort of a complicated
and nuanced points of view here, I think Charlie's existence is a big argument that it should.
He's half human, but even if he weren't half human, should he have rights?
And so I think the series as a whole is concerned with this question and about if he should have rights,
how do we get to a place where other species do have rights?
And it takes pains to sort of show a lot of humans who think that that's ridiculous
and don't agree with the idea that any non-human species ought to have rights.
So it's a thorny question.
Yeah, I was surprised at how well the manga was illustrated and written by a Japanese person.
I assume that this manga artist is from America or lived in America.
There's an interview of his editor when this manga got Manga Taisho in 2022.
The editor at the moment said the author has never been to foreign countries before.
He even doesn't have a passport.
And the people around him, like editors, staff, none of them have lived in other countries.
But the author did a lot of research and reading and he loves movies and this stuff.
So it all comes from his memory, like from movies or TV dramas or imagination,
which is amazing, I think, in my opinion.
Yeah, I mean, that tracks.
I think Americans who read this might find the portrayal of America and Americans in this
to seem a little bit like someone who hasn't lived in America and holds some stereotypes about America.
But I think for people who already had all of those stereotypes,
it's like, oh, yeah, it's so much like America, where it's like, well, maybe.
But, yeah, I think the series of events that takes place in the books feels, I mean, it feels sort of plausible,
but it also feels a little bit like you're seeing America through the eyes of a person who doesn't live here.
And I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way.
Sometimes living in a country blinds you to some aspects of what it's actually like to be there
or gives you your own biases about the country that you live in.
And so seeing it through someone else's eyes can be useful and make sense.
But to me, it does have this a little bit of the flavor of like,
this is what someone who's not from America thinks America is actually like,
if they've watched like a lot of movies about America.
And that's not to say that it isn't what America is like,
just that there are there are certain types of scenes in the film where I'm in the film,
where you're like, feels a little bit like an impression or like, you know,
a bias about what the country is like, as opposed to how things actually work,
but not in a bad way and not in a way that bothered me as I read the books.
Yeah. Yeah. So in the manga, there are a lot of shootings.
I thought we were avoiding spoilers.
Well, we can say shootings, right?
Okay.
Yeah. Like mass shootings.
Wow. You're just like, I was just going to say there's a lot of guns.
Okay, we can do that.
Okay. There's a lot of guns in this manga.
A lot of guns.
I think actually one of the things I was sort of like alluding to,
like, I think Japanese people think everyone in America owns guns.
And that's not actually, you know, statistically like that far away from the truth, I suppose.
But yeah, there are quite a lot of like uses of guns in this manga
that feel like how Japanese people perceive Americans to use guns all the time, sort of.
And I, like, again, I don't, maybe, maybe I'm the one who's like biased here.
And actually it's just like statistically realistic or something.
I mean, from the country where there's, you know,
you are not basically allowed to own guns,
like there are a lot of shootings going on in America,
almost like not every day, maybe every day. I don't know.
Right.
A lot.
That's kind of what I mean. Yeah.
I mean, I, I'm thinking actually of Sakamoto days,
which is in the middle of an arc that involves everybody in the country of Japan getting a gun and three bullets.
What?
And like, I sort of feel like that might be how Japanese people see America
as like literally everyone has a gun and is like potentially prepared to kill anyone else at any time.
And like, that's a little bit too much.
Right. Right.
At least in California.
Yeah. In the manga, it talks about veganism, guns.
I mean, not really.
It's not about guns.
It features quite a lot of gun violence.
Right.
And that like feels like a social commentary in the way that it's handled.
And animal rights.
Yes.
Or rights.
Rights in general, but specifically animal rights.
Yeah. But because like when I was reading as an immigrant,
it's like, is it about like me or?
Right. Yeah. There's a little bit of a question of like, whose rights are we really talking about here?
But I really think it is animal rights.
I don't think this is like an extended metaphor for anything else.
I think it's really a sci-fi story that wants to ponder whether animals deserve rights and what kind of rights
and how would they get them or how would we respect those rights?
So it's a very interesting topic.
Things keeps happening.
Like, yeah, it's manga.
It's entertainment.
But it's very, very fascinating how story moves on.
I will say it's a very fast paced manga.
It's not like slowly developing.
Which I appreciate.
Like one thing happens and then another huge thing happens almost immediately.
Yeah.
So it should be a pretty good watch when they turn it into an anime.
There should be like a major event every episode.
There are fairly good actions in there.
I'm shocked to hear you say this.
Don't you think so?
Yeah, I think the animated version is also going to be great.
Charlie's awesome.
Right. I mean, there is a weirdness to like, oh, we've created a chimpanzee human hybrid
and it's a superhuman.
Like, and they kind of try to explain it by being like, well,
mules are stronger and smarter than horses.
And be like, yeah, but they're not faster, though.
Like they're crossed with a donkey.
So there's like, you know, and like it's one thing to be fast.
And it's another thing to do some of the things that Charlie does in this,
which just really make him like an anime character,
as opposed to like a believable human chimpanzee hybrid.
And like, I don't have a problem with that because it is a manga.
And like, sure, you want to make the hero like super fast and strong
and like can outrun bullets or whatever.
Like, yeah, go ahead. You do that, you know.
But is it would a real life human be able to do those things?
No. So whatever.
All right. So there are like a lot of characters in the manga.
Do you have any favorite characters?
Yeah, my favorite character is Bert by a mile.
Bert?
His original dad. I really like Bert.
What?
He's an optimist.
He's smart?
He's smart. He's really like kind and thoughtful.
He's a professor?
Yes, he's a professor.
Okay, so he's me.
If I adopted a human Z, I would be Bert.
And so I like him a lot.
He's a little bit philosophical about things.
Like, I think he's cool.
I mean, he's a foster dad, right?
Yeah, yeah. He's Charlie's foster dad.
Right, right, right.
My favorite character is, I like Lucy.
Lucy is Charlie's like a best friend or yeah.
Okay, I like Lucy, but also I like Grace.
Grace is?
Grace is Dupity's wife.
The deputy's wife.
She's a great character too.
Because the whole story, the entire story is so intense.
Like there's no time to relax or breathe while you read it.
Because you were like, what's happening?
It's so, everything is so intense.
And Grace comes in.
And Grace is such a great character to release the tension.
True.
And then she's such a nice person.
Yeah.
And then like, she likes Charlie and she takes care of everybody.
She's in her like, I don't know, 50s or somewhere in there.
But like, there's some like a sad past behind her, I assume.
Okay, we'll go with I assume.
Anyway, she's funny.
She's really funny.
And she gets the point of the argument.
She doesn't argue, but she's great.
Yeah, I agree.
Is there any scenes you liked?
I like the villain in this series.
Also, I don't want to like say too much about it.
Yeah, I think the villain's really interesting.
And so I'm curious to see where that goes.
Well, yeah, I can't say any more about it without like getting into spoiler territory.
But I think like, the villain is not super easy to unpack or understand.
And I think the way that the story handles like real social conflicts
over things like veganism and animal rights is like realistic,
at least to a degree and interesting.
And it explores like a couple of other themes like social isolation,
you know, the sort of sclerotic nature of like American legal systems
or, you know, like Congress and stuff like that.
I like its treatment of the issues.
And I think the villain is portrayed really interestingly.
So I'm curious to see where that goes.
Yeah.
All right.
So while I was searching about the Darwin incident,
I came across with the story of Human-Z.
Oliver the purported Human-Z.
Yeah, I was like, is it a real thing?
Like, based on this thing?
So I did research and you did research in English.
And we found out there was like a celebrity chimpanzee.
I guess that's an okay way to put it.
Who was born in where?
The Congo.
Congo.
And then lived in America?
Well, seems to have been like sort of taken by American researchers
and brought back to the United States as like a juvenile
and then sold from chimp trainer to chimp trainer.
So I think went through about three different owners
who are all like trainers for entertainment.
Yeah, for entertainment.
I think, you know, Oliver belonged to a place in California, actually,
that used him as part of a entertainment display
and then was later sold to a research laboratory,
which was terrible for him.
And then eventually wound up in the care of like a primate rehabilitation program.
But I don't think they actually rehabilitated him.
They seem to have been like using the money for other stuff.
And so eventually that got taken over by the state
and then like reassigned with a different board of directors.
But he didn't actually ever leave.
They just made his conditions a little bit better and then he died.
But he lived to be almost 55.
So why was he called the human Z?
Because the way he looked was different from other chimpanzees.
I mean, according to the research I did,
it's not outside the range of possibility for chimps,
but he looked less like a quote unquote chimpanzee than other chimpanzees.
He was a little bit bald, less hair.
A little bit less hair.
And he liked walking up straight.
Walked upright, didn't use his knuckles until he got old.
Right. People started thinking, oh, he might be more than chimpanzee.
Yeah. So they did a bunch of genetic tests on him in the 80s
and determined that that was not, in fact, true.
But it was part of why he was exhibited as like a object for so long.
Yeah. He even flew to Japan and then appeared on TV and stuff.
And he was treated in like suite room.
Suite room.
He was given a suite to stay in at a hotel.
Yeah.
When was this?
I think 70s, 80s. No, I can't remember.
The 70s makes more sense is the time frame when this would have happened.
Yeah.
So there was like a lot of TV appearances.
People treated him like a cerebrity.
And then after a while, he came back to America and then he was put in a lab.
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was a dark chapter for him.
Right. He didn't like it.
He was put in a cage.
He was put in a cage.
It was so small he couldn't exercise.
And so his muscles started to wither away and his limbs shook and stuff.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, it was terrible.
At the end, he's just a regular chimpanzee.
Yes.
But at the time, it was a big like sensation.
I think it was, yeah, it was a sensationalist claim that he might not be just a chimpanzee.
Right.
Yeah. And he was, you know, he was a little different, but he was a chimpanzee.
Yeah.
And then seems like there were like experiments went on like in different countries trying to make humans.
Yeah.
So the Soviet Union had a doctor who attempted to crossbreed humans and chimpanzees in the 1910s and 20s,
but who eventually fell out of favor and got exiled and stuff.
And so his research was stopped.
He seems to have attempted to artificially inseminate chimpanzees with human sperm, but none of the chimpanzees got pregnant.
So the experiments were failures.
Then there are rumors that there was another chimpanzee human crossbreeding experiment in China in 1967 that maybe succeeded,
at least partially, in like creating a pregnancy, but that the pregnancy was not carried to term.
And the research got caught up in the Cultural Revolution and then ended.
But there were some Chinese scientists who came out in the 1980s who were like, I was a part of this research.
And so it's not really verifiable, like they might not have been telling the truth, but they said it happened.
So that's what we got there.
And there are thoughts, I think they've also tried to create cells or like some like basic tissues that are human chimpanzee hybrids
that are not like a living embryo, but that are like the precursor to one.
But then I think they haven't like allowed it to grow enough to be like, even like an embryo.
And there's concerns that like it wouldn't be feasible if you let it grow anymore,
but that at the like cellular level, they've like succeeded in merging chimpanzees and humans.
And again, I think most of that research has happened in China because there's less concern about like getting punished for doing that there.
But I think none of that's been like published or anything.
It's not like for sure, it's all sort of like rumor and yeah, and like maybe and that kind of thing.
That research is potentially as recent as like 2019.
So no, like no human Zs have ever been born, but some people have definitely supposedly tried.
Why do they try?
I don't know, maybe it's just like just scientific curiosity, like, can you do this?
Which, you know, I mean, there's all sorts of like enormous ethical problems with this research.
And I don't think anybody's really thinking through the consequences.
But I mean, that's one of the big questions in the book too.
Right, right.
Why would somebody do this?
At this point of volume six, we don't know.
There's some, there's the beginning of some answers in volume six.
But, you know, it goes a little bit to this idea that like, maybe you just do it because you can.
Or to like see what happens next or to force, you know, people to rethink their basic assumptions about stuff or something.
But yeah, it's hard to say.
Yeah, talking about humane or humanity a lot in there remind me of you.
Of me.
We eat eggs.
That's true.
And you buy the most expensive, like a lot of very like stereotypical Los Angelina type egg buyer.
I don't have that stereotype about Los Angelinos that we buy expensive eggs particularly.
Yeah.
I mean, like I know some people who own chickens and who like have their own eggs from their own chickens and stuff.
But it is true.
I am, I am a sucker for, you know, greenwashing marketing that tells me that like these eggs were procured from happy chickens that are leaving like full lives where they are respected and treated as, you know, animals.
Animals ought to be treated, which is like how I feel things should be produced.
I don't feel guilty about, I'm not a vegan.
I don't feel guilty about eating eggs that chickens are producing that aren't fertilized because they just do that naturally and they're not like those eggs aren't going to do anything else.
Like you can eat them.
I think it's okay.
Yeah, we can.
I mean, I'm not even a vegetarian.
Yeah, you're not a vegetarian.
I do eat meat.
But I feel very conflicted about the way meat is produced in the United States.
Oh, yeah.
I probably feel a little bit conflicted about the notion of eating meat at all.
It's just been part of me for so long that like I have not yet been able to like make the step to like not do that anymore.
But industrial agriculture is just like obviously wrong.
And I understand that it's how we feed most people in America and that like changing it would be expensive and difficult and require a lot less people to eat meat.
But I would be okay with meat rationing if people were like, yeah, okay, we can have like responsible, you know, raised like beef that were like the animals live like fairly full, happy, healthy lives like before they are killed.
And it means you can only eat beef like twice a year.
And I'd be like, I'll take that deal.
It's probably hypocritical of me to say that and eat beef more than twice.
I mean, but I don't actually know like what the frequency would be with which you could like sustainably like and humanely.
I mean, maybe there's not.
I think like most vegans would argue there is no humane way.
That's how I kind of feel.
Yeah.
And there's I think there's probably a level on which I agree with that, but also level on which I'm like, I don't know if you promised me as a human, you know, 40 years of really good life.
And then like I would get executed as food for some aliens or something like I'm not sure that I would feel that it was like completely unfair.
I'd be like 40 years is a pretty long time.
Like if I got to like have a family and everything else, like, I don't know, maybe.
So I never thought about that way before.
Oh, you should read Gantz.
Gantz is a book.
It's a manga.
There's like at the very end of this huge spoiler.
But at the very end, there's like they really go there with that idea of like, what if humans were like cultivated as like food for like a superior alien species?
Promise Neverland is something like that.
Promise Neverland has like some of the idea of like raising humans for meat and like that one's messed up because they're kids.
They're like, you know, they're not getting like long, full, healthy lives.
And like they're getting like butchered and hunted and stuff and like some really messed up ways.
So I wouldn't be OK with that.
But I don't know.
I'm probably full of it.
So like we'll just we'll just stop there and say I feel conflicted about it.
But I do buy expensive eggs because I think the least I can do is like let the chickens I'm buying eggs from have decent lives.
And you don't buy meat anyway.
I don't buy meat.
Actually, I don't I don't go to the store and purchase meat and bring it home.
So, well, maybe not ever, but like very, very rarely.
Yeah.
The reason I started being vegetarian is because of the environmental issue, climate change and stuff.
Like you said, that was first like plastics and then all sorts of stuff.
And then after I started being vegetarian and knowing more about animals, like it started it changed my mind a little bit.
Before I was like for environment, not eating meat.
But like after not be not eating meat for a while, like was like kind of started feeling like maybe animal welfare reasons also.
Yeah. Yeah.
I started feeling a little bit.
Yeah. Yeah.
At the same time, like if we if I was living in the wild and have to live by myself, by hunting, I think I would do that.
Yeah. Yeah.
Grow plants and keep being vegetarian.
I mean, I think like if you're really living in the wild, like it's really hard to acquire enough different types of food sources in order to have like a healthy diet without meat.
Yeah.
Not that it's impossible. It depends on where you live and what you've got access to.
But I think it's hard.
Modern, you know, modern.
The other thing I feel is like I actually really enjoy fake meat.
That's so funny.
Like mycoprotein and stuff, which is made out of mushrooms.
You like it, right?
Yeah. I don't have any problem eating mushrooms.
I have a problem with that.
I hate it.
I like like, you know, fake like fake meat.
And if you were like, yeah, you know, like we'll just like we'll just have fake meat from now on.
I'll be like, OK.
I'd rather eat just plants than eating the fake meat.
Yeah, no, I find the fake meat both like tasty.
I mean, that's good for you.
It's a good source of protein and other things.
So anyway, I can definitely see a future where we stop eating animals because we can make things that are, you know, substantially similar enough that there's just no need to do that.
There is this question, though, of like, let's say we like stopped cultivating beef, right?
No more cows.
Like the population of cows on Earth would go way, way down in the same way that I don't think like if aliens were cultivating humans for food, we would be like, it's worse now that there's fewer of us, but we're not being eaten anymore.
Right.
But like, I think this series explores this question of like, do animals just have basic rights anyway?
Like the right to exist and have like space and stuff.
And like, I think it's one thing to be like, we're not going to eat cows anymore.
So cows just won't exist on Earth because like, we don't we're not going to commit to make space for them.
Right. And like, it's that's like very different than being like, we're not going to eat cows.
And we're going to let there be wild cows somewhere that are just like living their regular wild cow lives.
Because I think that's like a level that it's going to take a longer time to get to.
But if we abandon the eating of meat, and don't like make space for wild animals to have wild lives, you know, we're not really fixing the problem.
And I think that's, that's a question that this also brings up is like, what about the other rights that animals might have beyond just not getting abused and killed by humans?
How do we recognize that we need to share the world with other forms of life?
All right. So would you recommend this manga to?
Definitely.
Everybody?
Yeah, it's, it's got like, a lot of interesting things to think about, especially for Americans, because it's about America, which is something you don't see that often in manga.
And I'm sort of curious about how other Americans respond to it.
And like, you know, to what extent sort of Americans get triggered by like, the depictions of America in this and whether that really makes people feel like they don't like it, because that's not, you know, how could you make it this way or whatever?
Or whether they find it interesting. And I definitely feel like it's a good, it's just good at starting conversations about veganism, about animal rights, and about what we as humans owe to the life around us.
All right, let's do word of the day.
All right.
Today's word of the day is...
Oh, basic. Okay.
Okay. Too basic?
No, no, that's all right.
Okay. What's hito?
Hito means person.
Person. I guess it's different. I thought it was human, no?
Yeah, human. But ningen is human.
What's the difference between human and a human being?
There's not really a difference.
Oh, okay.
So yeah, hito could mean a human being. I think it's interesting that the character is written as something with two legs.
Right. Do you know why? Do you know the origin?
It just looks like you're drawing a person walking, right?
Oh, I've never seen that way.
What?
There's a super famous TV drama in the 70s or 80s about a teacher with the students.
And the main teacher is a Japanese literature teacher.
It explains that kanji hito is made by two people supporting each other.
That's how you remember.
And I thought it was a thing. It was a real thing.
And I think a lot of Japanese people believe it.
Wow. I mean, look, I don't know. We'd have to go back to ancient China to figure out the truth.
And then I googled and it's not real.
Okay, thank you. Yeah, it looks like a person taking a step.
Or walking or standing. It's like from the side, you see the person walking from the side.
It's just a stick figure with no arms or head.
That's true.
I think the idea of two legs, though, is really pertinent here because chimpanzees don't walk only on two legs.
That's true.
And the idea of humans are the ape that walked or the ape that stood up is a powerful part of our...
Evolution?
Yeah, our story about what makes human beings special and different, particularly from the other great apes.
Because gorillas and chimpanzees and orangutans and bonobos all use their arms as part of their normal walking and have opposable thumbs on their feet.
So it's like a uniquely human trait that we don't have opposable thumbs on our feet and that we walk upright.
So that being part of the etymology of that character, I think, really reinforces this idea that human beings are different and special because we walk upright.
And so that's very connected to the plot of the Darwin incident.
Yeah.
Anything else you'd like to add?
I think that's it.
I can't say very much more that I want to say about the series without spoiling it.
So maybe we'll wait until the anime comes out and then talk about it again.
Yeah, it's coming next January.
We have to wait a little.
Yeah, a little.
Yeah, pretty long time.
Yeah.
So I'm really excited to see the voice actors who's going to be in charge of Charlie or Lucy.
And I've been reading, we've been reading the manga all in English.
Yeah.
But it's going to be in Japanese.
And then are we going to listen in Japanese?
I can't stand the dub.
We'll have to listen to it in Japanese.
And it'll just be weird that it's a bunch of Americans speaking Japanese.
And it'll be so weird.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Maybe they'll get really good.
I mean, I don't think so.
But it would be great if they got actually talented American voice actors for this.
That'd be awesome.
Yeah, we'll see.
All right.
Check your local library if you're interested in reading this week's manga for free.
And that's what we did.
Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode.
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Peace out.