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This is Reinamoto's podcast, The Creative Mindset.
Welcome to The Creative Mindset, a podcast about the art of building a career through
conversations with the world's leading practitioners of creativity. It's an intimate
journey on how they got started, their turning points, failures, and tips on work and life.
I am your host, Reinamoto, the founding partner of I&CO, a global innovation firm based in
New York and Tokyo. Today's episode is part one of my conversation with Paola Antonelli,
the Senior Curator of Design at the Museum of Modern Art. The reason why I reached out to
Paola for the recording of this podcast was because over the years, over more than 20 years
that I've lived in New York and I've seen multiple exhibitions at multiple museums,
but the exhibitions that she curated over the years seem to have more creativity in them.
The topics, the subject matters that she would choose for her shows and the way she curates
those shows were fresh, surprising, and inspiring. And I wanted to understand the source of
creativity for her work in the world of design exhibitions and how she got to where she got to.
In the end, she gives us a piece of advice about life, which was quite surprising. So take a listen
and hope that becomes a useful tip for your work and life. So let's get started.
I never really knew how a curator becomes a curator and wanted to, you know, and I'm sure
everybody has their own journey, but I wanted to hear about your journey, how you got interested
in this line of work in the first place. And if you can tell us a little bit about your journey
becoming a curator. See, that's the problem. I have a feeling that I never decide. I have a feeling
that I never decided anything in my life except once when I decided to abandon economic school
and move to architecture, but I truly did not have a calling. I grew up in Milan and as a Milanese
kid, I went through everything that Milan has to offer because I worked in the fashion world. When
I was a teenager, I was keeping the press separate from the buyers in Armani's PR office. So I mean,
I was like an intern, right? But an intern for like three years every afternoon. So I was working
there. Then I worked in design. I worked, you know, it's like all of the different things that
Milan had to offer and did, but before becoming a curator, I never thought that I would become
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a curator. So I studied economics at first. And after two years of studying economics,
I realized that I was really unhappy and it took me two years because I was stubborn. You know, I
wanted to really make it work. So I remember that I was in Sardinia, which is the place where I was
born. And I was sitting on a rock and I was thinking and looking at the sea. And that's when
I decided to move from economics to architecture. So that's what I did, not because I wanted to
become an architect, but because I wanted to go as far away from economics as possible.
And at that time, architecture school in Milan was a mess. It was like we were 15,000 students,
only in architecture, only in Milan, 15,000. We would pay 200 bucks a year and it was a jungle.
It was like, you know, everybody had like a knife between their teeth and off you went. Like it was,
I didn't even know what I was doing. I just was finally free from the Bocconi, which was the
university of economics that I used to go to, which was very square. And I just, I couldn't
really cope with that. So I didn't really know what I was doing, but I started architecture.
And since I have always been an overachiever, I just did it well. You know what I'm saying?
Even in the middle of that chaos. And then I was recruited when I was still in school to
hang an exhibition at the Pianale. And when I was there hanging the paintings and painting the walls
and doing everything, I met the curator of the exhibition. He was Vittorio Magnago Lampognani,
he was also the deputy editor of Domus magazine. And so he hired me at Domus and everything
happened. You know, in Italy, you don't study to be a curator or to be a journalist or to be,
you know, like one particular practice. You study a subject and then you write about it,
curate it, you just like edit it. And that makes for deep knowledge and sometimes not so great
form, but you know, you just like acquire as you go. And that's what happened to me. I was,
I started freelance curating. I started writing, I started reporting and to me, journalism and
curating go together. The kind of curating that I do is of that time. I just want to
stop for a second. Otherwise I go on forever. I can start talking about the United States and
what happened. Yeah. So just to, just to focus a little bit on specifically in your,
on your career, what was your, you know, from starting architecture to
finding an opportunity to curate a show? Well, tell us a little bit about that moment in your life.
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You know, it's just being in the right place at the right time, I guess, or just being in the right
place, period. Because even today for anybody that's curating design, Milan offers many more
opportunities than say New York. Right. So, so I feel that it all happened quite fluidly. I mean,
I was, as I mentioned to you, an overachiever. I must've been, I mean, I was pretty unbearable.
And, and actually my colleagues used to call me the American before I had even come to the United
States, because I used to be on time at the meetings. I used to be prepared, you know,
so I was the American in a kind of derogatory way. Yeah. I think it has to do with the fact
that I was in Milan. In Milan, there were so many more opportunities, right? So I told you,
I was at school. Then I'm at the Triennale, this amazing building that was built to make exhibitions
of architecture and design. I'm there hanging the show. Then I start working at Domus, which is also
in Milan. And it's one of the most famous Italian world magazines of architecture and design.
And then I'm at Domus and there's somebody that's doing an exhibition at the Lingotto,
you know, the beautiful factory in Turin. And they tell me, do I want to be a junior assistant
curator? Sure. So, so, so that's how it happened. You know, it was just really the opportunities.
And I also have great mentors that, that gave me those opportunities. Some that I love more
than others. My beloved ones are like Giulio Castelli, who was the founder of Cartel. He was
this chemical engineer and also he's the one that founded with many others, but he founded the Salone
del Mobile. So we're talking about this like amazing person. Then another great mentor is
Italo Lupi, who was the art director of Domus and then became the editor in chief of Abitare. So he
took me with him to Abitare. So many, many others. And then I had not mentors, but great encounters
like Achille Castiglione was one. I say that he was not a mentor because he never mentored me at
all, but the opposite, you know, when I was at the university, he gave me like really low grades. He
was not nice. He was not super nice, but he was a great designer. And I did an exhibition on him.
So that was nice. And he was a great teacher. So, you know, mentors and, and, you know, the, the PR
of Armani Barbaraviti was also a great mentor. So important people that I met because I was such
a pain in the neck, overachiever, first of the class, you know, so, yeah.
I see. I see. So just going along your career, tell us a little bit about your, what you consider
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to be a turning point. Yeah. What were some, some of the key turning points in your career?
Well, the turning point that I told you, the first one was like that rock in Sardinia for sure.
Then turning points based, maybe when I got, you know, I, I was working in Milan at Domus,
et cetera. And I was asked if I wanted to be the Italy coordinator for the 1989 edition
of the international design conference in Aspen. It was supposed to be about Italy, right?
And I said, yes, of course. I told you overachiever, like, yeah, yeah, please, please. Until that
moment, I had done wonderful things, but in a very provincial way in the sense that it was still
about Italian accents. It was about, you know, just all these different things. And I didn't
really know how to be a professional say in the United States. I didn't know how to write a proper
memo. I didn't know how to ride in a blue car with a telephone, you know, just all these different
things. Right. And all of a sudden I remember it was just like a different level, a different plane
of, of work. So I decided that I had a crush on the audio visuals guy who was this surfer from
Malibu. Right. And it's, it's not really true that I had a crush. I realized now in hindsight,
I just needed this kind of like emotional excuse to just like keep going. And so the conference
was in June and in August, I went to LA because I was, you know, I decided that I was infatuated
with this guy. Nothing ever happened with him because he couldn't care less about me,
but you know what? I got, I got a teaching position at UCLA. Oh, excellent. So then from teaching in
LA at UCLA, what's next? So when I was teaching in LA, as I mentioned, I was also in Milan.
I was stopping in New York and I had a boyfriend in San Francisco. And I remember opening,
literally opening ID magazine, ID magazine, the industrial design magazine. So not the cool ID
magazine from the UK, the American version, also very cool. And there was the ad for the position
at MoMA. So I answered the ad and I knew the curator there, the chief curator, because I had
written about some of the exhibition, but he was very surprised because he didn't think of me as a
curator. That was Terry Riley, right? So I applied and I interviewed and I got the job.
Wow. So like literally from a magazine, just a posting in a magazine that you responded to. So
it's not like they, they headhunted you from, from UCLA. Yeah.
No, if they had headhunted me, I was not at all, you know, they usually recruited people,
especially at that level, because it was an associate curator position. It was not like
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a curatorial assistant. So usually people at that level have museum experience and they usually
recruit them by looking at other museums. I don't even have a PhD. I mean, I have a master's and I
was doing freelance exhibitions, but I was not necessarily on their radar.
Wow. So you, you, you quite manually, quite literally manually.
But then, you know, the terrible thing is when they, when they told me that I had the job,
then I had to move to New York and there was a little bit of a trauma, but okay.
But when you say trauma, is it because, because you, you know, you had relation, you know,
you had a relationship on the West Coast and moving to New York. Is that that kind of trauma
or what do you mean by trauma? No, no, not only that. I mean,
that's definitely, those are always things that tear you a little bit inside. And my family was
in Milan. No, but it was also that I moved here in February of 1994. And that was a notorious winter.
There were like 17 snow storms. It was cold. My God, it was so, so cold. And, and it was not only
cold, the weather, it was also at MoMA, people were cold, or at least I felt that way. I mean,
New York is not a super easy place at the beginning. So, uh-oh, we paused. No, you can,
I can still go. So, New York is not a super easy place at the beginning. And, and I have to say
that even though Terry was fantastic, he was not really the mentoring type. And, and at the
beginning, I really was going to cry in the bathroom. I was, I was feeling really, really lonely.
Lonely. Also, my colleagues did not welcome me very much. They were, they were like,
especially one person who I have, like, I'm Italian. So, I'm still tasting my revenge
because their life is not going so well. But, you know, but so it was, it was really difficult.
Wow. So, your, your introduction to New York and MoMA was a little rocky emotionally. Wow.
I don't think it was at the beginning, but I went through a really serious depression.
But still, I was working. I mean, like the emotional state doesn't really matter. When
you have to work, you have to work in New York. So, as a working professional, I was always
at the top of my game. And being depressed or down meant that maybe it took me a half hour or
one hour to get going in the morning. Right. So, there were moments in which I was like crying,
crying, crying. And then I would put myself in front of the computer and in a half hour,
I would stop crying and just work for the whole day. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a little bit like
a functional alcoholic. I know that there's many, and I don't know how openly people talk about them,
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but you know, depression is a reality. And it's, it's my family. And I know that it's a problem
that I have. I mean, right now, right now, I don't, I don't have it anymore. Not, I mean,
for an afternoon, perhaps. Right. But, and I recognize it. So, when you know it, you know how
to handle it. But at the beginning, you need to learn to deal with it. So, you just, you just go
through life. Life is not easy for anyone. So. Yeah. Well, thanks for, thanks for sharing your,
your personal side of the story that I never knew. And you know, I'm glad that you had something to
focus on professionally to, to, to get through. So, I guess, you know, coming to, coming to New
York in the nineties, even though your initial introduction is, you know, it was cold and,
you know, you had some challenges, but at the same time, you were comfortable being in a,
in a foreign, you know, environment that you weren't familiar with.
Super happy. And, you know, after the first year and a half, when I started feeling really that it
was my home, I don't think that I've ever encountered as beautiful people as New Yorkers,
just with their own personality. When people ask me what's my favorite place in New York,
I think I was asked by some magazine and I, I had them actually take pictures of me on the subway.
I just love New Yorkers on the subway, you know, because they have such strong personalities.
And also they're so kind to each other. We're so kind to each other, maybe because
life is complicated, especially when you're thrown together like sardines.
And we've, we learned to cope with each other by being kind and it, and it became even more,
more evident after 9-11. After 9-11, people started, I mean, really being so loving to each
other. Yeah. It's the, the level of diversity and the level of different types of people
and still coexisting that I find fascinating. What piece of advice do you have to a 22 year
old self, you know, to some, you know, a Paola in your early twenties, when you were starting
your career, what advice do you have to yourself? Learn how to surf. That's what I was telling you,
because I think it's the best approach towards life, because I feel that it gives you a different
approach to life. I feel that it's a great metaphor, but it must be also an amazing way
to make that metaphor reality. And I wish that I could, that I could teach it to everybody.
But you were saying, which advice would I give to myself, not to somebody else, right? Myself,
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I wouldn't change a thing. I would tell myself to keep going. You're really, you're beautiful.
You're smart. You are doing just well. For the 31 years old myself is hanging there really,
you know, trust your friends and, and value them because the tough times are always happening.
So you need to have a buffer around you. That's, that's beautiful. That's beautiful.
That was part one of my conversation with Paola Antonelli, the Senior Curator of Design at the
Museum of Modern Art. I had, as usual, three takeaways from my conversation with her.
Those points were number one, opportunity is a consequence of where you are. Number two,
depression is reality. Number three, learn how to surf. The first takeaway,
opportunity is a consequence of where you are. In this conversation, she shared her upbringing as
well as how she got into, first into fashion, then writing about design. And that's how she
found her way into the world of curation. She is from Italy, but specifically she grew up in Milano
and she talked about being at, not just at the right time, but at the right place,
the importance of being in the right place. And that really made me think that the place
where you bring yourself to, whether it's a city or a company that you go work for, and
people that you surround yourself with, that becomes a key to opening the next opportunity.
In her case, because she lived and grew up in Milano, she had more exposure to different types
of design and she cited those exposures as a way for her to eventually find her way into the world
of curation. So number one, opportunity is a consequence of where you are. The second takeaway,
which I have to admit was a little surprising, but I was deeply appreciative of her being open
to talk about her own struggle with depression. She said that, especially when she first moved
to New York, and this was in the early nineties, she was obviously much younger than she is now.
She didn't know a lot of people in New York and New Yorkers are notorious for being tough and
potentially rough. She didn't necessarily have a warm welcome. It happened to be a very, very cold
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winter. So she felt alone. She wasn't famous or successful yet. And she found herself being quite
depressed. But I was struck with the fact that she talked about it as if it was a normal thing.
And it is a normal thing, you know, these days that more visible, famous, especially athletes
have come forward in talking about their depression or their struggle with mental
health, especially, you know, performing at the highest level in the public eye, but
some of them becoming very open about talking about their mental health. And I really,
really appreciated Paola being open to talking about it and just explaining the struggles that
she's had and how she dealt with it. And it's totally normal to have some challenges with your
mental health. And it's something that a lot of people go through and there's nothing to be
ashamed of. So number two, depression is reality. Number three, learn how to surf. This was her
life advice to us. She said this in a literal and metaphorical way. She said that this is a piece of
advice for life by learning literally how to surf, especially if you haven't done it. It's something
new that you may not be familiar with or comfortable with, and it will take a while for you to get used
to. But once you know how to ride the wave, it becomes much, much easier to maneuver from one
wave to the next wave. And she gave this advice as a metaphor for life as well, because life has
different waves at different times and you really have to try to learn how to ride those waves in
order to move from one place to the next place. And I thought that was a really unusual, but
a refreshing take on how to navigate life. So takeaway number three, learn how to surf in life
and for real. So just to summarize, three takeaways from my conversation with Paola Antonelli.
Number one, opportunity is a consequence of where you are. Number two, depression is reality. There's
nothing to be ashamed of. And number three, learn how to surf in life and for real. The next episode
will be the second part of my conversation with Paola Antonelli, where she talks about the
definition of creativity, which again, in her own way was very refreshing and a little surprising,
but very Paola. Stay tuned. I'm your host, Reina Moto, and this is The Creative Mindset. See you next time.
